I do not agree with what you are saying. My family member transferred from one Ivy to another. My daughter’s BF transferred from an Ivy to a school that was lower ranked.
Both transferred due to social fit - not academics, cost, distance etc.
My daughter told me she prefers good public universities over schools that are considered more “elite.” That’s where her comfort is, for reasons that are unique to her.
My daughter turned down an “elite” acceptance (off the waitlist) before even telling me about it. Why? When she interviewed she found out that 50% of the girls were in a sorority, and the interviewer would not stop talking about Greek life. That was enough for her to turn it down, despite being a top university, and despite the fact that half the girls were not in a sorority.
I had an engineering kid with great stats. We toured a number of elite schools that she crossed off the list after visiting because of fit.
One Ivy - no co op option, no first year engineering design class, students seemed super stressed and unhappy. Too many out of college requirements.
T10 - too urban, too focus on CS in terms of institutional spending, super stressed and unhappy students.
T10 school everyone else loves - no co op option, quarter system, too “preppy”.
T20 - too theoretical and not hands on enough, too many out of college requirements, awful facilities.
Etc…
We toured 15 schools and she eliminated 7, arguably the most “elite” by rankings.
IMO students need to think about what is most important to them beyond prestige. Can students be happy anywhere? Maybe. But why not stack those odds to make sure the academic program is well in line with the students interests and personal preferences?
I wrote above that I believe many students can ‘fit’ at many colleges. For the highly rejectives the student does have to demonstrate knowledge of the school and how they fit…but the AOs are the final arbiters of fit.
With that said, I do think some schools offer quite a unique experience and if the student doesn’t feel a passion for that experience, why apply?
MIT is a school like that. It’s a highly intense academic experience with a quant heavy focus, where many of the students would self describe as nerdy. Many students who attend have had experience in math and/or robotics competitions. Not much focus on athletics, or school spirit. I’m not saying there’s no school spirit or no parties, just different from many other schools. Does it sound like your D would enjoy a school like that? Does she know anyone from her school who has attended? Has she visited?
I would try to separate out the prestige aspect from fit. For a kid who is a full pay student from a private school she may very well have a similar outcome in terms of career regardless where she goes to college. That’s what Dale and Krueger data generally show. It’s best if you can visit as many schools as possible, it really does help assess what the place is like, as many posters have said above.
A kid who writes a trite essay (for example)–Dartmouth isn’t likely to say “wow, how profound” while Columbia will say “nah, read this essay 100 times this season already, by kids who treated the material with more finesse”. A trite essay is trite across the entire range of “highly rejective colleges” which put weight on the essay. At some point, a high stats kid WILL be in an applicant pool where the stats are more important than anything else (Villanova and Emory are going to care a lot less about the essay if the kids stats are over the top AND the kid has shown sufficient interest) but the stats aren’t enough to make the sale at the tippy top schools where those stats are merely table-stakes.
So sure- shotgun. But the classic “We lost the championship game but we gained self-respect” essay doesn’t get any better by the 20th application… or “I’ve wanted to become a neurologist ever since my grandma was diagnosed with alzheimer’s when I was 6” which focuses on grandma but tells the adcom’s nothing about the kid.
With respect to major offerings, a student with potentially broad interests in physical and natural sciences may want to to consider the availability of a geosciences program. Whether or not a student pursues geosciences as a major, it might represent the best field for intergrating aspects from other sciences through elective offerings, and in synthesizing information toward an understanding of global phenomena such as climate change.
Keep in mind that your student is also going to need to write compelling ‘why us” essays for all these elite schools. Those essays need to be tailored to each school and absolutely are not interchangeable.
You should lean into the counselor opinion then. It is too hard for those of us bot familiar with your HS to figure out likely vs match vs reach. BC would indeed be a likely for a profile like your Ds from ourHS, assuming she has taken the hardest clases available and is indeed in the top few kids class rank wise. 3 of 4 of your matches would also be matches here. One would be a reach(Dartmouth—it is deemed reach-for-everyone at our school, though is slightly easier admit than the other ivies).
Good luck to her! She should spend lots of time on her essays and applications, understand fully who interviews, how that process works(ie if she has to sign up), and be aware that some schools on that list have extra essays after the application is turned in.
All elite colleges are not for all tippy top students: fit is definitely a factor even though the academic -peer -fit can be similar at the small-medium elites. However: Dartmouth is very different than Brown which is very different from Columbia. The vibe on admissions tour, student tour, online info sessions: very different fit factors. So I am not a proponent of shot gunning but I do agree for the tippy top students having a mix like your D’s list with more “reach-for-everyones” makes sense. The balance of this list is consistent with the recommendations from our school counselors. However, one could still be shut out of all but likelies so make sure she has likelies she loves!
Well…think of it this way. There is no way Dartmouth can pretend it’s in a major metro area. It’s not. So if fit for a student means wanting to be in an urban area, Dartmouth can’t make that happen for all four years.
If fit for a student means they want to be able to ski (and not have to travel far to do so) every weekend, then I can’t see how Notre Dame could be a fit for that student.
If a student does NOT want to be in an urban area, MIT, Yale, Harvard, Georgetown, and Brown are all urban and wouldn’t be a fit for this student.
So…to answer your question…it depends on what the student defines as needs for a fit. Sample of two. One of my kids wanted to be in a major metro area…period. That kid applied only to colleges in major metro areas. Second kid wanted a college with “pleasing weather” (that meant no snow and a mild climate year round). Applied only to colleges that fulfilled this. Anything outside of these would not have been a fit for our kids.
I somewhat agree that “fit” is a bit overhyped, and that many students will be happy at a range of schools. However, that doesn’t mean that admissions offices feel the same way. College admissions at elite schools will expect multiple individualized supplemental essays that are weighed heavily where the student is expected to explain why each individual school is a good fit. Even if you don’t personally agree that “fit” is important, your student will be required to write eloquently about fit over and over again in ways that convince each individual school that the student understands the school and what it is offering.
Just an example here are two very different essays your daughter would be required to write if she applied to all of the schools on her list:
Brown’s Open Curriculum allows students to explore broadly while also diving deeply into their academic pursuits. Tell us about any academic interests that excite you, and how you might use the Open Curriculum to pursue them while also embracing topics with which you are unfamiliar.
Notre Dame is a Catholic university, founded by members of the Congregation of Holy Cross, with a mission to educate the hearts and minds of students. What excites you about attending Notre Dame?
These essays are going to require dramatically different expressions of values and goals, and picture your daughter having to make these adjustments not just twice but a dozen or more times (some schools require more than one supplemental essay, ie, Notre Dame). I imagine a gifted writer with a lot of time on their hands could do a good job of it, but it will be super time consuming and might not be the best use of extremely limited time in the late summer and fall when high school seniors are incredibly busy.
I’ll also add that schools will be looking for fit not just in the essays (including the common app essay which will go to all colleges), but also the letters of recommendation, and the students’ activities. That makes it more difficult to present a unified package that is tailored to each school if some of the schools on the list are wildly different from each other. The student could write a great essay about why Notre Dame’s Catholic mission is important to them, but if that’s also not showing up in the rest of the application, Notre Dame sill might not see that the whole package presented by the student is a fit.
Applying to MORE elite schools does not increase your chances of admission.
You have some sure things on your application list. Even so…I think you should read the thread I’m about to link. This VERY high achieving student was not accepted to any of the colleges to which he applied on his first round. He was a NMF, tops in his class, excellent ECs, etc. Even though he didn’t have a true sure thing for admission on his list, no one expected he would be shut out of admissions entirely but that’s what happened. And this was in 2005 when admissions were far less competitive than they are now.
Having a long list of elite schools doesn’t guarantee admission to elite schools.
Here is the thread, and I would suggest you read the whole thing.
Most students will find a number of schools that are a good fit. There is academic fit – which for some may mean classes where they can be largely anonymous and maybe even attend/re-watch lectures remotely, and they may seek out profs who are great “performers”. Others may need/want more intimate settings with greater participation. The latter may be critical to a student who wants to know their profs but isn’t as good a "student entrepreneur " in terms of initiating contact or a student who struggles more with focus. There are pros and cons to both but they won’t be the same for everyone.
There is also social fit. At pretty much any school, you can find friends. At a smaller school, there is likely a dominant culture and whether you are part of that may or may not matter as well as the options if you’re not. At some schools, the experience you want may revolve around Greek life or competitive clubs or sports. At some, most activity will be on campus while at others, students do more in the surrounding area. In the case of the latter, financial resources may matter.
Personally, I think getting this one right is really important. It’s hard to be all in academically if you’re unhappy (worst situation). These are a unique 4 years in life and easier to navigate (and more fun) if you enjoy the social milieu.
None is inherently better, but for most students, there are better choices. It’s sort of like choosing a vacation. Florence and Maui are both great destinations but two different experiences.
I know lots of kids who ended up at “poor social fit” colleges- but it was the best option given the price tag and the rigor of the academics. So no- not lifelong friends, not an experience out of a movie or fabulous road trips on weekends. But a Bachelor’s degree, a high quality education and four years of hard work, and an affordable price tag. No regrets.
And others who spend freshman year miserable (despite admitting that the academics are superb), end up transferring, and then regretting that they traded amazing resources and depth to live in a sorority and run fabulous parties-- which while fun, is likely not worth the extra $ their parents are paying for the experience.
So you need to know your kid. Do they care about the social fit? Do they thrive in a tough academic environment and are going to be able to put the cool party/lifelong friends piece to the side? Is being near skiing/surfing/fun city with concerts and theater critical to them?
And at the end of the day-- how much are parents willing to pay for a “better” social experience? We were NOT willing to pay for it. More rigor? Yes. Better parties or nicer weather? No. More opportunities to spread your wings intellectually, be stretched in unfamiliar disciplines? Yes. More spring break options? Not on my dime!
In my experience, no. My peers who went to different “elite” colleges had different experiences. Some of us really loved our colleges, some people thought they were OK but didn’t love one or more major aspects of their college life, and a few actually struggled significantly. That was a long time ago, but comparing notes with other parents more recently, that basic pattern does not seem to have changed much.
Of course it is impossible to know for sure if things would have gone better at different colleges, but I think there were at least good reasons to believe that.
Like, one person I know ended up at a small LAC in a rural area where he felt he had to join a fraternity to really have an active social life. He did not hate the experience, and he really liked the LAC academic experience, but in retrospect he wished he had chosen an LAC in a more urban setting with much less Greek life. Of course other people loved his LAC, so it is just a personal fit issue.
Similarly, quite a few people I know went to one of the “elite” public universities, and some (not all) of them reported some discontent with large class sizes, feeling like they were just a number, feeling like they ended up mostly just continuing friendships from high school and not expanding their social circles much, and so on. So, some of them in retrospect wished they had chosen smaller universities or colleges. Again, I have heard from other parents about similar experiences recently, although also again this is a very individual issue.
In the end, I think happy people tend to do better. So I think many people at the application stage overrate the importance of the generic “ranking” of their college, and underrate the importance of how they actually do in college as an individual. So, to me, it is not worth risking going to a somewhat higher-ranked college that may not be the best bet for personal happiness.
Unfortunately, many people seem to have internalized the rather silly way of thinking about “prestige” represented by things US News rankings, where every school gets a generic national “ranking”, and a higher ranking means more prestige.
As always with these things, it is far more nuanced out in the real world. Different colleges are considered “prestigious” for different reasons, and seen differently in different communities, and so on. As an immediate corollary, if you and a college are a good fit, you are much more likely to get the benefit of whatever “prestige” opportunities are available to you at that college. If you are not a good fit, it is much more likely you will not benefit as much.
In the end, I also think chasing prestige is generally a poor life strategy. But even holding that aside, if you are going to chase prestige, you should do it in a smart and efficient way. And understanding and applying the concept of fit is very much a part of that when it comes to college selection.
No, some of the schools are quite different from others. None of them are a good fit for every single highly qualified student that they accept. Not every student winds up loving the college that they attend - hence transfers. Shotgunning all the “elite” highly selective schools may not boost the odds of the student being accepted to a single one, if the non-stats portion of the application doesn’t match what the college is looking for - and they ARE looking for specific things, in addition to high stats. Even if the student is accepted to a random “elite” school, they might discover that that school is awful for them. Recently, I have known of an introverted, quiet student who was an awful match for Dartmouth (no surprise), but went because it was the only “elite” school they got into. They were miserable there and transferred. I also know of a highly talented, outgoing person who was majorly involved in performing arts, went to Brown, and was very unhappy there because the performing arts scene on campus was not what they had been hoping for, plus it was an unfriendly place for their ethnic group, and transferred. Does this mean that Dartmouth and Brown are terrible schools? Of course not. But the awful fit for each of these students was something that people familiar with those schools could have told these applicants about before they ever applied, and certainly that these applicants could have discovered by having done more research and maybe a visit, before application.
Again, if you were to give us more info about what your daughter is seeking in a college above and beyond it being a T20 school, we might be able to give you more useful responses. But hey, if what you want to do is have her apply to a safety that she would be happy with, and then put in another 50 applications to all the T50 schools on your favorite internet ranking site, and if money is no object, go ahead. It will be very time consuming for her to craft great essays targeted at each specific school, if the only reason for her application there is the school’s position on an internet list of school rankings, and is hence probably less likely to lead to an acceptance than if she had researched the schools, chosen a few that are good matches for her, shown demonstrated interest to the school, and crafted essays that showed why that school was a good match for her.
I guess it depends on your definition of “just fine”, but I actually know people who were not content at each of those specific schools. Again, it is impossible to know for sure if they could have been happier elsewhere, but these individuals at least did not feel like their college ended up a good fit for them.