<p>I think I feel a hairball coming on…</p>
<p>I haven’t got as much patience as ADad.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Hopefully, some cat owners can offer some helpful suggestions. Or, perhaps you could take a course on impatience management? (or on neurodiversity) ;)</p>
<p>scansmom, thank you for your recommendations. I do happen to have a little puddy not two feet away at the moment. :-)</p>
<p>I appreciate your friendly tone, but just as you’ve assumed I don’t have a cat, perhaps there are other assumptions you’ve made that may not be wholly correct.</p>
<p>Another thought, just saw this post and thought I would respond. It may not be a diagnosable condition like ADD, it could be something else (I obviously don’t know).The pattern you talk about is one that is quite familiar to me, it is what kids in the gifted range and beyond can experience in schools, especially public schools, where in the lower and middle grades the teaching is tracked to the ‘glorious middle’, and it hurts kids on both ends of the spectrum. To the really bright kids (not academically good students, kids whose IQ is out there) it comes too easy, and they often either coast, zone out or cause trouble (there is significant evidence that a large percentage of the kids misdiagnosed by school psychologists are not ADD/ADHA and many of them are out there on the IQ chart). The general answer schools give is that they don’t have the financial means to tailor programs to students (which sadly is often true), and there are cultural issues, like teachers who resent the kids who break up their neat plans, or those who believe (perhaps in sincerity) that those out there have to ‘learn to deal with kids of different abilities’), all of which are problematic. Not to mention that gifted kids often figure out their own way to do things, or ask tough questions, which teachers can find annoying or disruptive.</p>
<p>Want an example I heard not long ago? Mother of a 7th grade girl, who was in some reading group, and the girl told the teacher she had read the text book they were reading and it was easy, teacher didn’t believe her, gave her the standardized final the book had, and she aced it…the girl was reading on a graduate level of college level I might add. Teacher basically told the girl there was nothing he could do,. and they just needed to follow along with the class, which, after all, since she knew the stuff, “would be easy” , and I have heard tons of other examples of this. </p>
<p>The result is a kid who goes through school, coasting or zoning out, and can cream tests but doesn’t do that great in classes, especially the hard ones when they hit HS and college. One of the biggest factors is that they don’t have the study skills, when it was critical they never had to struggle with most of the stuff, didnt’ have to study, etc, and as a result never learned what academically strong kids of ‘lesser’ ability did, because they weren’t challenged.</p>
<p>It is an unfortunate side effect of many things, including a popular culture that sees giving kids like this a program that fits them as being ‘elitist’ and such (funny, the same people who would complain about that, are many of the same people who talk about sports, and make fun of sports programs where all kids get to play, arguing that ‘real life’ is such that those are good enough get to play, it is competition…but when it comes to academics, argue that helping kids like that is ‘elitism’ and the like) so a lot isn’t done (note, some schools/school districts are really good with this, others have programs like 1 day a week pull out enrichment that is window dressing, others do nothing and say, as one schmuck said to us with our child “we really can’t do anything, but we of course would love to have children like yours, because they boost test scores without us having to do much”). </p>
<p>With our own child, and having past history in mind, we scraped to send him to a private school we thought would help, and it did (not all private schools are good with bright kids either, there are plenty who do the same thing public schools did), the teachers there recognized our child for what they were, and they made sure he was challenged, and also emphasized the working portion of it, even if he could do things easily, they made sure he had to work at it. And yes, I did it because I was a poster child, got through grade and middle school and 9th grade with straight A’s and didn’t crack a book, and then had problems as things got harder, and my college career wasn’t necessarily stellar either, so I know from where I am talking. My career took an interesting course, but it turns out I wasn’t lazy or stupid, and did well in my career through an unorthodox path, and I don’t think that has necessarily changed, with all the stuff out there that if you don’t come out with a 4.0 gpa from Harvard you won’t find a job, it doesn’t work like that, though coming out like that is a handicap, I won’t deny that, and it is unlikely such a person would be able to become an investment banker. It takes work, it takes finding what job they can, and using it to show what they do, and it means working hard and achieving. Ironically, I was called lazy, when most of my career, I have been known as the person who always puts out at a high level, is willing to do anything to get the job done, work long hours,etc…</p>
<p>If the kid is still in high school or college, then I highly recommend finding help for him assuming he bright but lacked discipline rather then having something real like ADD…there are places that teach study skills, that teach the kid how to approach things, something that most people assume school teaches but may not. There are therapists who specialize in kids with trouble in school like this who actually take the time to help them find what they need. </p>
<p>Mensa has some stuff on their website, and they have a gifted coordinator who might have suggestions, there also are national groups for gifted kids who have websites with suggestions, and they also might help find someone to work with the kid in question.</p>
<p>I wish you well, I hope the kid turns around:)</p>
<p>Late to this interesting thread, but scanned it just now. If my comments repeat others, please forgive. Random thoughts:</p>
<p>Cultural resonance: see Jack Nicholson in “Five Easy Pieces.” When he jumps on back of the moving truck where he works construction, to play a piano piece flawlessly, it is to weep.</p>
<p>Level with son: if you are struggling with this now, let him know in a heart-to-heart. He will feel part of the process. It will clue him in that you’re not so happy with the example you have been setting for him. He can’t solve it but it might be illuminating to him to know you’re wondering about how to reroute yourself.</p>
<p>Son as inspiration: I think your love of your son might be the thing to cause you to change paths, to the extent possible. Children are powerful motivators.</p>
<p>Comraderie/inspirational example: I have a relative in his mid-50’s who went undiagnosed, but had dyslexia, ADD, and later: depression. He graduated h.s. and went to work. Brilliant man, self-educated (avid reader!). His wife had the steady job; he worked many kinds of creative ad hoc jobs and delivered pizza, school custodian, whatever was needed. Wife always offered she’d help finance his college degree if he’d enrol. He put it off and off. Finally at age 46 he took up the challenge. In fact, he attended college the same years as his 2 young adult children. They often did homework together. </p>
<p>The family EFC (expected family contribution towards college tuition and other costs of attendance) for their young students was practically Zero. The young ones got financial help from schools (he didn’t). </p>
<p>He completed studies at an unremarkable area college, hoping to go into public school teaching. There, he conducted history classes BRILLIANTLY, engaging everyone; students left his classes hopping with excited conversation. But his natural rebelliousness towards bureaucratic systems, the need to submit mundane lesson plans, won him no friends with supervisors. It became evident he couldn’t continue teaching at public school, so he never did get the well-paying work for which he trained. </p>
<p>BUT…he found very satisfying work teaching English and writing skills at an area business/technical institute for blue collar students. He started teaching one course and within a year they had him up to fulltime because he was so GOOD, so dedicated to his students. His social activism is satisfied by realizing that he helps students apply for and keep jobs where basic English skills are an entry point. Most are native English speakers but they don’t write or speak well enough to get office jobs before HE works with them.</p>
<p>He teaches them to read the news critically and shares a love of history and current events. His daughters and wife are enormously proud of him. He graduated college at age 50 and there were lots of jokes about how it was okay to drink at this graduation party; he didn’t have to fake an ID. </p>
<p>The chronic lateness is still there in social situations, but not in academic/work realms. He’s the same charismatic, kind, funny, lovable person but the new thing is he’s proud of his work life and therefore a much happier man.</p>
<p>what a great story, p3t!</p>
<p>musicprint, thank you for your very accurate description of what school can be like for very high-ability students. In my experience, parents of the “normal bright” -that is, high average - kids who tend to thrive in school don’t understand how great the difference in intelligence is between their kids and a really bright kid. These parents like to say that because their kids are challenged in school and doing well, there must be something wrong with the high-ability kid who isn’t doing well. I’m often tempted to ask them how they would respond if the school district placed their kid in a class four grades below, and then said that the kid “needs to learn to get along with people of different abilities,” “needs to learn that life is full of uninteresting tasks, and shouldn’t complain that the homework is too easy,” etc. I’m sure they would be screaming bloody murder. What they don’t see is that this is what is being done to the really bright kid who is the same age as their kid, but years ahead intellectually.</p>
<p>Consider homeschooling.</p>
<p>Nymom-
I never thought to put it that way, but that is a very good way to look at it. In many ways the kids of ‘lesser’ ability have it easier, because they have had to work, in some ways giftedness is a curse, as I know too well. Unfortunately, our education system tends to be a one size fits all (personally, I think we should aim all coursework at a high level and grade kids by ability, rather then design coursework for some median level so that many kids can do well…big difference). I have heard plenty of people say that school sports programs, which obviously run tryouts and take only the kids good enough to play at that level, are fair because it would be unfair for the kids who are good athletically to be forced to play with kids who aren’t very good, that it would hold them back, yet if you make the same argument about kids who are out there, it suddenly becomes about fairness, etc (not to mention that when they do have gifted programs, the ambitious parents whose kinds aren’t at the cutoff level, insist their kids get in there because to them 'it looks good on the college cv)…</p>
<p>I agree with others, homeschooling may be an option, it may give you the flexibility needed, whatever the cause. It also takes discipline, though, I generally recommend finding a homeschool program, online or otherwise, so there is a structure there.</p>
<p>Truth is, these people are not as special as they think they are. At the top of any field, the people who have really made it are usually both gifted and very hardworking. Those who can’t stomach hard work don’t make it, nor do they deserve to.</p>
<p>How to avoid this: never overpraise your kids. Praise for effort, and never for innate qualities.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>An excellent example of “executive function” gone awry - whether one wants to call it a disorder or not. Perhaps the neurons and synapses that help self regulate cogntive abilities fail to develop because they are underused, and, in fact, are pruned and weeded out during certain stages of the brain’s development? Have we now created a 'disorder"? Yet, we might want to stop and ask: Do ALL very bright students become underachievers - or only those who are not provided a sufficient opportunity - or means - to continue to develop their executive function abilities? Or those who perhaps were born wired in such a way that their cognitive executive function abilities fail to develop as well as they should. </p>
<p>
</p>
<p>I’m not sure you can always assume that just because someone appears to not be very hardworking means that they cannot “stomach” hard work And even though someone may say this about themselves, can you always ascribe the same meaning to these words without fully understanding the context behind them? </p>
<p>The example of the 7th grade girl above could have been me when I was in grade school - my school actually did try to come up with a solution to keep me from being bored. No, not an enriched or self-directed curriculum; instead I was pulled out of class to tutor younger children who needed help in reading. Of course, I was the only student in our entire elementary school who did this and was teased pretty unmercifully by my peers (they were not exactly friends since I did not have many friends back then). Just one more layer that set me apart from everyone else. And what heartbreak to then watch my own DS as he grew up reliving all the pain and loneliness I experienced as a child in my case, this is presumably a result from being praised too often on how “smart” I was since back then, at least, there was not actually anything “wrong” with me ;)</p>
<p>There has still not been enough study on executive function disorders in gifted individuals for us to truly make many conclusions on either causes or treatment, especially among older teens and adults. Often what might be diagnosed as ADD/ADHD inattentive may actually be executive function disorder either alone or with the ADD. One thing the OP may want to keep in mind, is that often meds may help ADD/ADHD but usually will not help EFD. </p>
<p>FWIW: here are a couple of interesting articles by one researcher on the development of executive function and cognitive self regulation (but also stresses the importance of interactions with other executive functions such as emotion self regulation and notes that the two cannot be looked at separately - as has been done in much of the research in this area. I would personally also add sensory self regulation as another area that should be studied in conjunction with cognitive self regulation since in many cases of EDD, Asperger’s/autism and ADD/ADHD you also see, in addition to emotional, behavioral, anger management issues but also sensory integration issues that all arguably interfere/influence with cognitive development):</p>
<p><a href=“http://legacy.oise.utoronto.ca/research/brainwaves/phpwebsite/files/uplink/Lewis_2005.pdf[/url]”>http://legacy.oise.utoronto.ca/research/brainwaves/phpwebsite/files/uplink/Lewis_2005.pdf</a></p>
<p><a href=“http://fcis.oise.utoronto.ca/~mlewis/Manuscripts/Lewis_Todd_07.pdf[/url]”>http://fcis.oise.utoronto.ca/~mlewis/Manuscripts/Lewis_Todd_07.pdf</a></p>
<p>Whoops, thought this thread had died.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>That’s a really good point, musicprnt. Sadly that’s not a rare example of inconsistency in social attitudes.</p>
<p>I do think though that the diagnostic criteria for ADHD-I are spot on for both me and for my son. Six of the ten symptoms listed are supposed to be present for at least six months (both at school and at home) to a problematic degree, to qualify: and my son has either eight or nine of the ten depending on how picky you are. (Interestingly, I also fit eight of the ten, but my son and I each have a symptom the other does not.)</p>
<p>So empirically, we almost certainly do qualify for the diagnosis (since there is no additional requirment in terms of any kind of brain scan or blood test); the only caveat could be if, as I noted before, one considers this a personality type rather than a disorder. However, that is in some ways solely a semantic issue since the same could be (and is sometimes) said of Asperger’s or even schizophrenia.</p>
<p>Paying3tuitions, I love the story about your relative! He really sounds like someone I could relate to, and I’m so pleased to hear that he found a fulfilling vocation (gives me hope as well). Do you happen to know how he keeps the punctuality issue under control for work when it is still clearly there in social issues? I know for myself, it’s partially about procrastination in terms of getting ready, and also about unrealistic ideas of how much I can get done in a small period of time (I know it seems like I should have learned by now, but I just keep falling into that trap over and over).</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>DeborahT, it’s so funny that you mentioned that because before I came on here or talked to his counselor at school, this was my first inclination. I was willing to teach him myself, knowing I could do a good job and feeling this would protect him from creating a bad high school transcript that would limit his options. But his mother won’t hear of it, alas.</p>
<p>Scansmom, I Googled “executive function disorder” and found this site that compared and contrasted it with ADHD-I:</p>
<p>[What</a> Is Executive Function Disorder (EFD)? What Is the Difference Between EFD, ADHD, and LD? | Attention Deficit Disorder Information & Resources - ADDitude](<a href=“http://www.additudemag.com/adhd/article/7051-2.html]What”>http://www.additudemag.com/adhd/article/7051-2.html)</p>
<p>I see why the two can be confused, but I feel like the ADHD-I is a much better fit than the EFD, at least the way it’s described here.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>That is certainly what Mindset (book suggested by another poster some time back) by Carol Dweck suggests. It helps combat the fear of failure that some feel is holding them back.</p>
<p>McDonalds is hiring. Get a job at McDonalds, see if he/she can hold down any kind of job where they need to be somewhere on time, and work. Use this as an assesssment tool - are they lazy? too good for anykind of work? really do have a disability?</p>
<p>Mom90: huh? Read your post several times and I’m really not clear on your point. Is it sarcasm?</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>The interesting thing with my son is that he has had a “lower level” job and has done great at it. Before he was a cashier, he was a bag boy; one of his duties was to clean the toilets every night. No problem, no complaints. But this work ethic doesn’t translate to school/academics.</p>
<p>Not sarcasm (maybe just a little). But really, how do you know if your kids are really lazy or need other help if they haven’t “worked” at a job. Do they have a disfuction? Are they conning the system a bit because they are so smart? Do they know you will support them? What is the right combination or reality, tough love, and compassion? When do you say “no” and “this is enough?” All very hard questions. But maybe, just maybe a dose of reality would be good.</p>
<p>“Dose of reality”, eh? Hoo boy. As if McDonald’s is “reality” (that is, any more than anything else is).</p>
<p>Living in your head can be nice, but unless you can find a way to have that bring in an income, you may have to resort to something else, in order to survive. Whether or not you approve of the food content, there are several aspects of a job at McDonald’s that are very real. It brings in a paycheck, one for which you’ve earned every cent. You learn about following procedures. You learn about having bosses, which occurs at most jobs unless you’re willing to do what it takes to have your own business. You learn about handling money. You learn about serving people.</p>
<p>P.S. You learn how hard it is to get the onion smell out from under your fingernails.</p>
<p>And, as in most jobs, if you don’t perform, you can be fired.</p>