What are "smart but lazy" kids supposed to do with their lives?

Parents Forum
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<p>In the fields where employers ask for SAT scores, what they seem to really want is a score from a standardized test taken near the end of college – such as the GRE, GMAT, or LSAT. But there’s a catch. The young people they’re recruiting are the ones who don’t intend to go to graduate or professional school (at least not right away). They intend to get jobs instead. Therefore, they usually haven’t taken one of these tests. However, they did take the SAT or ACT, so employers will use that if it’s all they can get.</p>

<p>So if your kid is disappointed in his/her SAT score, that doesn’t mean he/she has to rule out a career in consulting. The student can prepare for and take the GRE or one of the other end-of-college type tests later on and use that score instead.</p>

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<p>@collegealum314</p>

<p>I think you’re onto something, but as adults habits are pretty hard to change. For young minds, about anything is possible. So I would not limit potential to a certain area. I just believe hard work, mentors and determination is what it takes. Along the same lines of Usain Bolt and Jordan…we have Michael Phelps who after '08 Olympics his coach had a hardtime getting him back on track until a year and 1/2 later. But the coach also goes on to mention how his training were so intensive after Phelps finally came back (60minutes w/ Anderson Cooper). Calvin Coolidge said that nothing can take the place of persistence; not talent nor genius. Hard work and determination are omnipotent.</p>

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<p>oldfort - Please share specifically what you are doing to help this employee of yours. This is a difficult problem to deal with, whether you are a parent or a manager.</p>

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<p>I’d rather deal with teaching smart to work a bit harder than trying to teach dumb no matter how much they try.</p>

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<p>My company is a bit different that we don’t use industry standard technology, so even if someone has 10+ years of experience or with a PhD degree, he/she would still need to learn our proprietary technology from scratch. Our business problems are also fairly dynamic and fluid that people need to think outside of the box and be able to do problem solving on their own (kind of like consulting). We tend to look for very smart people who are teachable (coachable). Both GPA and SAT give us a glimpse of someone’s intelligence and work ethic. </p>

<p>VMT - this employee reports to one of my managers, but I am on him more than others (I guess I have taken a special interest). We meet regularly to go over what he has done, what’s his approach and speed he finishes his task. If he starts to wander off to explore, we bring him back quickly. If he wants to do something in differently, like taking a short cut, we ask him to do it the way he is instructed to do it (our technology is such that it would be very easy to overwrite data or use up a lot of memory and cpu if the query is not constructed properly). Some people may think I am stifling his creativity by being too structured/strict with him, but because I think he is so talented I like him to learn how to walk properly before he starts to run. He’s never had real structure in his life and he has come very far. I already got feedback from other people that this employee’s code is quite amazing, but not full proof yet. I am optimistic that this employee maybe a star someday.</p>

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<p>Just because he was a SENIOR MANAGER (so breathless!! the idol worship!) didn’t make him God.</p>

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<p>“I like this kid, so I am trying to do what his parents should have done for him.” </p>

<p>I’ve got one of those brilliant, very disorganized kids. Unless there is intense academic rigor, they wing it and survive on brainpower. Parents might be clueless. In the first 9 years of school the only teacher conference dings related to kindergarten scissor skills and 4th grade “chatty during warmup time” (which we thought was an ok thing for a shy kid). And I actually did due diligence, as askiing if there was any areas in need of improvement. (The other bright kid was a different story. Mostly we heard things like, “he’s obviously very bright… but…” ) </p>

<p>This is an interesting book, especially for parents of younger kids. I found it late in the game but was comforted to not be alone - [That</a> Crumpled Paper Was Due Last Week: Helping Disorganized and Distracted … - Ana Homayoun - Google Books](<a href=“http://books.google.com/books/about/That_Crumpled_Paper_Was_Due_Last_Week.html?id=j2hXYynRDL0C]That”>That Crumpled Paper Was Due Last Week: Helping Disorganized and Distracted ... - Ana Homayoun - Google Books)</p>

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<p>Colorado Mom, thanks for the link–that book looks interesting.</p>

<p>GTalum, your nephew does indeed sound very similar to me and my son (me especially). Your story underlines my concern that sort of shepherding them along can only go so far. Or maybe if you live long enough, you can do it for their post-school career too? Sounds kind of crazy, but with the longevity people enjoy today, maybe that could work.</p>

<p>Marsian, fair point on my daughter’s story. She clearly has no interest in playing music whatsoever. But when it comes to reading, she is supposed to read X number of pages per month, and always logs some insane multiple of X instead. (We would like her to read more challenging material, though, as she plows through hundreds of pages a day but it’s all in the vein of that “Warriors” series.)</p>

<p>Oldfort, I salute you for being so accommodating. I always felt like I had a lot to offer if I ever would have encountered someone like you.</p>

<p>GTalum (later post), thanks for the kudos. But I find it interesting that you say your nephew “does not have ADHD, is bright and engaging, but continues to lack work ethic”. Are you sure he does not have ADHD? I can see that some people might dispute the idea of ascribing a psychological syndrome to people who are “bright but lazy”; but if you accept the validity of the DSM definition of ADHD-Inattentive, it’s hard for me to imagine that your nephew could be so similar to me and my son but not qualify.</p>

<p>CrowLady, thanks for the props. So you are saying you married your college boyfriend, and then had a child together who takes after your husband? It’s interesting how the “slacker-striver couple” (in which the slacker is almost always the guy, and the striver the girl) has become so much more common in movies, and perhaps IRL (my wife and I certainly qualify). </p>

<p>This is such an interesting and fraught area for those of us who are interested in the fundamental nature of cognition. Traditionally, there was (and still very often is) a moral judgment attached to this personality type. In some ways, we “smart but lazy” people were/are seen as the worst of all. We “could”, but “don’t”. We “waste” our intellectual talent. We “lack work ethic”, we “underachieve”, we are soft and decadent, wallowing in our hedonism.</p>

<p>So, okay, maybe that’s true. But <em>why</em> are we like this? Why do we not muster more effort? We were just born bad? (Or if not “bad”, just not as good and morally upright as the more industrious among us?) Would it really be just as easy for us to be ambitious and hard working as it is for the, well, ambitious and hard working? Then why don’t we choose it? What is “grit and determination” made of, when you get down to it? I don’t have any easy answers, because I recognise that one can go down this path so far that you excuse any behaviour. Perhaps most troubling is not so much to excuse the actions of really sick serial killers (where it is easier to accept that there is something seriously psychologically wrong); but I am never going to be able to give a pass to someone who is needlessly cruel and “******y” to people around him; so why should I get a pass either? </p>

<p>I guess though that I do see a difference between active cruelty and “douchiness” and the tendency to find it hard to muster up effort to stop “slacking”. I can’t really judge as I can’t live in someone else’s mind along with my own (though that goes both ways for everyone else as well); but I strongly suspect that it takes a lot more mental effort for me to stay “on task” than it does for a lot of other people. I feel like stuff that other people treat as pretty routine (working a 9 to 5 office job for instance) feels akin to having to go work a double shift in a coal mine (and that if I actually did find myself in the situation where I had to work in a coal mine or as an agricultural labourer to survive, I would simply not survive, full stop, end of story). If that makes me a subpar human being, so be it.</p>

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<p>Slackerdad - My brother tells me he had him “tested” for ADHD and was told he did not have it. I think he was tested more than once. My nephew can stay on task for many things, but things of his choosing. It is interesting that my son with ADHD is one of the most persistent people I know. He needs meds when he needs to focus, but is motivated and wants to accomplish x,y, and z, especially if it is something he needs to accomplish goals. When I say nephew lacks motivation, what I really mean is that he lacks societal norms of motivation. </p>

<p>I wonder slackerdad, if you really are a “slacker.” If you were a woman without a career track, depended on your husband for the majority of the support, and were a great mom and wife, you wouldn’t be beating yourself up. My mother tried, mostly with encouragement from my dad, to “work” and never could hold down a job for more than a few months. My family admires her as a wonderful wife and mother. Both my father and mother say that he got her through high school. It looks like we give our sons not much freedom to be a great husband and father.</p>

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<p>Interesting thread…</p>

<p>When I read Slackerdad’s original post, I thought of this quote from Calvin Coolidge…</p>

<p>“Nothing in the world can take the place of Persistence. Talent will not; nothing is more common than unsuccessful men with talent. Genius will not; unrewarded genius is almost a proverb. Education will not; the world is full of educated derelicts. Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent.”</p>

<p>Sorry - this quote seems a bit moralizing. But I think there’s something there. </p>

<p>To respond to Slackerdad’s original question, I don’t think there is anything wrong with being lazy, but I do think there is a danger: the world passes you by.</p>

<p>To respond to his recent post #268: I think behaviour can be changed, and that cognitions will follow. I don’t think laziness is baked in. There are strategies that you can use to be productive. One of my favorites, and this works well for writing tasks, is to commit to doing an hour a day. Use a timer, sit at your desk, and do your hour - no matter how you feel. Soon, you’ll see, you begin to crave that hour. And soon, it becomes automatic.</p>

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<p>Welcome back, Slackerdad. I was surprised to see I did not participate in the original thread. My oldest brother is one of the smartest people I know. He hated anyone telling him what to do, however. He dropped out of college and determinedly went in no direction that could ever require much of him. He is a self directed slacker. He has always supported himself, but has always refused to play the games that society (and more particularly, our parents) expects of smart adults. He very clearly does not have ADD. His slackerness is a choice, which, since he is self supporting, is nobody’s business.</p>

<p>On the other hand, I know a young man who could be a college Junior, but he has dropped out. He, very clearly to his friends, teachers, and aquaintances, is a walking advertisement for unaddressed ADD. His mother (a friend of mine) has steadfastly refused to explore that direction in searching for answers to his inability to perform the way his test scores indicate. He was always the kid who could not sit quietly, didn’t do his daily homework, slapped out a paper at the last minute, but could pull off decent grades through most of high school. His mother has a deep seated dislike for medications to treat ADD, and refused to seek any professional diagnosis. The kid started self medicating in high school, which has lead him into a bad place in terms of illegal drug use. But his SAT scores were high enough to earn him an out of state scholarship, and off he went to college, where he earned a 1.awful GPA, but traveled all over the Northeast to every concert, party, and city. He promised to bring up the grades, and did a little bit but not enough to keep the scholarship, so by his second year he was back home, not getting along with his mother, and taking a few classes at the community college. Spring semester he moved back to the city where his original college was, but is working a minimum wage job and not in school at all. He is still self medicating, and is not headed for a good place right now. </p>

<p>Here’s the thing about this kid: all he ever really wanted to do was be a chef. For as long as I’ve known him, he got kitchen gadgets for birthday and Christmas gifts. He wanted to apply to a culinary school, but his parents wouldn’t hear of it. Maybe AFTER he earned a degree in, say, business, they said. I think eventually that is exactly what he will do, but he is on a very rocky road right now. What has been very clear to everyone except his parents for years, they are still defiantly denying. The kid has ADD, and wants to be a chef. They refused to have him tested, and pushed him into college. He has a drug problem, lives hundreds of miles away from home, is barely speaking to his parents, and is underemployed.</p>

<p>If a kid is simply lazy (in your eyes) but is happy and self supporting (or achieving at a reasonable if not spectacular level), let it go.
If you aren’t sure if your kid is lazy or has ADD, ask anyone else who spends time with the kid in a place where something productive is supposed to happen. And listen to the answers. What we can’t or won’t see as parents is often painfully obvious to teachers, coaches, scout leaders, even the kid’s friends.</p>

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<p>Interesting thread (and great name, SlackerDad!).</p>

<p>Sadly, SD, I am the female slacker but I don’t think I have the same issues as you and your son. If I have ADD, it’s to a lesser extent. I can work hard, focus intently and aim for goals but staying on track for a sustained period of time is hard for me. When I was younger, I could focus intently but I wasn’t particularly driven. I wanted to do what I wanted to do. Lucky for me, what I wanted to do was valued by society so I was able to get a good education and then a decent paying job. In a way, I’m a high-achieving slacker (good schools, graduate degree, etc.) Going to graduate school was a three-month frenzy of research, GRE and applications to a handful of schools. Then, I basically forgot about it until the acceptances and phone calls came in (uh-oh, now what??!) I’ve never had a career in the sense of staying in a field (or a location) for a sustained length of time, building upon each position to move into a higher level position with more responsibilities. </p>

<p>I don’t know if I’ve “wasted” my intellect, talent or potential. I suspect several of my former managers believe so. I’ve had three managers like Oldfort (they were the best ones) They saw something in me and sought to direct it by teaching me personal skills to handle the work environment. One manager even outright said to me upon hiring me, that he thought his greatest challenge in me was to keep me engaged and interested. He did a good job - I lasted 3 years before going off to graduate school - in the end, I needed to move onto another adventure or challenge.</p>

<p>Long ago, I’ve made my peace that my life goals would not be the same as what society thought my life goals should be. While others may see me as “lazy”, “unambitious” or such, friends and family realized I just don’t quite follow all the rules. Some are okay with that; many are puzzled why I don’t take on all opportunities, especially work opportunities (“you could make a lot more money” is a common phrase I hear).</p>

<p>GTalum, I found being a stay-at-home parent much more difficult than working. Way easier to slack at home than at work. It is easy to lose focus when there are so many tasks, many unrelated. An entire day could pass between laundry loads because there’s also grocery shopping, vacuuming, mopping the kitchen, picking up the random room in the house, putting away toys/books/gadgets, ORGANIZING the toys/books/gadgets (always good for two or three days). </p>

<p>MIndfully, I like that quote. It pretty much echoes what my father said to me over and over again. Hard work trumps genius. To get anywhere, you need to put in the work. As for the world passing one by - I guess that depends on what the world is doing and what I’m doing. Maybe I don’t want to play the recorder with the world; I’d rather read a book.</p>

<p>SlackerDad, it doesn’t sound like your daughter has quite the same issue as your son and yourself. She may have something but it sounds like she’s making a conscious decision concerning her actions or inactions. I actually find that admirable (thinking for oneself at a young age and sticking to it); I hope you don’t make her follow the crowd just because everyone else is doing it.</p>

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<p>Eastcoastcrazy, ADD diagnosis can be done with a questionnaire. More extensive neuropsychological testing can be done, but none of it is really specific for that diagnosis, in our experience. Generally a family physician can diagnose ADD.</p>

<p>Does your friend think that a diagnosis of ADD automatically means medications? There are other approaches. My daughter cannot take meds due to another condition and is finding other ways to do what she needs to do.</p>

<p>The cultural/parental obsession with college is so harmful to so many kids I know. I hope this young man can go to culinary school at some point.</p>

<p>If he continues to be forced to fit into a mold that doesn’t work for him, the illicit drug use will be necessary, I fear. Better to have it prescribed and have an MD to meet with to discuss use, dose and so on. </p>

<p>Best scenario would be to be in an environment that does not require the meds to function, if that is what the young man wants.</p>

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<p>Thanks, for your response, compmom. The young man recognized there was something not quite right years ago, took an online quiz, and asked his parents to have him tested. His parents have always refused to have a thorough work up, but I can’t say exactly why, other than a fear of ADD meds. Certainly it is not a lackmof money or education. I’ve backed away from the friendship with the mom due to other unrelated issues. And I don’t know why he hasn’t pursued testing and help on his own, though I don’t know what his insurance coverage is anymore. In middle and high school years his mom went in the direction of tutors and in believing he was simply an uninspired gifted student… But then she wouldn’t go along with his interest in culinary arts, either. Wouldn’t even agree to him taking the two culinary classes offered at our high school (fun, well run, and very popular among the college bound crowd because at that time they qualified as a Tech. Ed. required credit). It is sad to watch this play out. He IS gifted, but there is more going on than laziness or lack of inspiration. </p>

<p>If I ever wanted to pick a kid to come with me on an off beat trip, I’d pick this kid, who is energetic, open to new experiences and new foods, is not picky about accommodations, and would enjoy whatever the world threw at him. He is the last kid I would pick if I needed a partner to work with on a lengthy, written, intense project requiring serious research.</p>

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<p>There is a saying that success in life is often directly proportional to the amount of crap you are willing to do that you really don’t look forward to. I think there is a degree of truth to this. </p>

<p>Most of the really smart but under achieving people I know simply aren’t willing to suffer through things they don’t enjoy.</p>

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<p>I’m so glad others have mentioned Executive Functioning Skills. We’re all wired differently, but you’re not lazy.<br>
Dr. Brown, Yale School of Medicine is an expert on EFD
<a href=“http://www.drthomasebrown.com/pdfs/HighIQAdults.JADonlineversion.pdf[/url]”>http://www.drthomasebrown.com/pdfs/HighIQAdults.JADonlineversion.pdf&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>A book I highly recommend is – Smart but Scattered Teens.
Additionally, there are workbooks for adults and teens that can help you understand when and how we use Executive Functioning Skills and strategies to learn/develop them. </p>

<p>Give your son a hug and tell him he’s not lazy. </p>

<p>Regards,</p>

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<p>SlackerDad:

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<p>Yup. To be fair, I probably brought the ADD to the marriage, and both of us are pretty high achieving. We have two sons and as you’d expect they are each a different blend of both of us. However, I’m the one who gets up early and reminds everyone what needs to get done. We joke that one kid is happy living in the present (can’t focus long enough to plan for the future), the other is happy in the future (in other words, that’s when he’ll do his homework). </p>

<p>Personally, I don’t think ADD itself is necessarily a problem once you get out of an inflexible education system – in the right career/situation it can be very helpful. But the slacker attitude is very hard for me to understand. </p>

<p>Thanks for the advice, GTalum. We’re looking at a variety of colleges and we’ll see where #1 gets in. Mostly visited medium-sized schools, avoiding very large schools and very small schools. But we’ve thrown a couple of each into the mix now and maybe we’ll go visit to see. </p>

<p>And hats off to you, oldfort, for sticking with someone who longs to spend a certain amount of his time following his own passion. I see that kind of creative intensity in my household and hate to quash it to tackle the mundane tasks (like applying to college, paying bills, or doing required homework). It’s all about tipping the balance towards something that works in our society.</p>

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<p>“ADD diagnosis can be done with a questionnaire… Generally a family physician can diagnose ADD.” - Often that is true. But it can be trickier for really bright kids, diagnosed at older age.</p>

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<p>College has definitely shown me that I have an attention problem. I’ve read up on the symptoms and warning signs, and I can check the majority of them off one by one. It’s hard sometimes. It affects me mid conversation. My mind literally jumps off track mid sentence. I have to write in a dark room with a song on loop for me to be able to try and focus on writing a paper. </p>

<p>I’ve always been called a dreamer. When I was young, I would literally sit on the couch and just lay there…thinking about life in five, ten, or twenty years from then. I’m still a dreamer. Instead of my calculus homework, I’d open up Notes and plan my schedule out to the T. It’s hard. Especially, when I know I’m slipping off track, but I can’t quite get back on.</p>

<p>Just a small testimonial from a college kid who has a 3000 word essay due Thursday night…and exams tomorrow and Thursday…I’ve gotten myself into a pickle. :eek:</p>

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<p>The lazy kid I went to college with who was very smart is now a multimillionaire running his own company. It’s all motivation. When this guy had his degree he set goals and hit them. He couldn’t do that for tests and finals though. He was passionate about business, but couldn’t stand boring lectures. He was a note mooch. I am proud of him though because a lot of people counted him worthless and that was not the case.he just found passion in work but not in school. To each their own. We all get chances, some people grab them and don’t look back.</p>