<p>I always sort of chuckle when I see people say "I think this school, this school, and this school will all make it in the top 50 in X years." </p>
<p>You do know that three of the top 50 schools would then NOT be top 50? It takes a lot to push someone down, its not so easy to just "move on up"</p>
<p>[list=0]
[<em>]UC Berkeley
[</em>]Virginia
[<em>]Michigan
[</em>]UCLA
[li]UNC-Chapel Hill[/li][/list]</p>
<p>There could be more ties, but you're generally correct here, kcirsh.</p>
<p>semiserious, what opportunities are you talking about? And what red tape? (PS. I'm sick of hearing about it as it is often far overblown and isolated).</p>
<p>cal
ucla
unc-ch
umich
uva
uwis
ucsd
ut
uiuc</p>
<p>this is for me...</p>
<p>
[quote]
I too think Michigan is the clear #2, all things considered.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Haha, I personally don't think it's very clear that Michigan is #2. UVa is a very good public school in its own right. I think Michigan has a stronger graduate school than undergrad so if we're strictly speaking undergrad, UVa might be better. I'm not sure. Heck, Berkeley, UVa, and Michigan are all great schools, we can at least agree on that much.</p>
<p>
[quote]
You do know that three of the top 50 schools would then NOT be top 50? It takes a lot to push someone down, its not so easy to just "move on up"
[/quote]
</p>
<p>If we're talking about the US News top colleges ranking, I'm not so sure about that. For example, from 1999-2000 I believe Cal Tech went from #9 to #1. From 1991-199something Berkeley dropped from #13 to #27. WUSTL and Northwestern have gained about 10-15 spots in the past decade. Sometimes US News seems kinda wacky to me.</p>
<p>p.s. sorry for making two posts; I'm on a slow computer and if I make my posts too long it won't post.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Haha, I personally don't think it's very clear that Michigan is #2. UVa is a very good public school in its own right. I think Michigan has a stronger graduate school than undergrad so if we're strictly speaking undergrad, UVa might be better. I
[/quote]
</p>
<p>based on what criteria do you think UVa may be stronger for undergrad?</p>
<p>Their student bodies are very similar. As far as I know, student-faculty ratio is also very similar. Graduate student instructors teach a similar number of intro courses. Yes, Michigan's grad programs on the whole are better. I believe this has a trickle down effect on undergraduate education. Why?</p>
<p>1) For highly ranked programs, professors are some of the most renowned and accomplished in that particular field of study.
2) Renowned graduate programs bring the best graduate students, which in turn teach lower level undergraduate courses.</p>
<p>One may argue that Virginia is smaller, more personal and focused on undergrads. However, it is still a research university, and therefore I don't buy into the notion that professors there are any more dedicated to undergraduate education than those at Cal or Michigan. They partake in the same teaching practices that Cal and Michigan do but on a smaller scale.</p>
<p>I think UVA is more selective but Umich is better for special concentrations such as engineering and business. </p>
<p>Umich still has to lose its "safety for a top school" reputation while out of staters with 3.9's and near perfect SAT scores are getting rejected from UVA.</p>
<p>Overall I would say go to Umich for Business/Engineering but UVA for everything else. Ross in my book is definitely > McIntire.</p>
<p>Well for what it's worth, the USNews selectivity formula actually favors Michigan. </p>
<p>Michigan has a higher acceptance rate. That's it. The student bodies are nearly identical, which makes the selectivity argument null and void for all intents and purposes, regardless of which one you feel is more selective. I believe UChicago also has a higher acceptance rate than Virginia. Would you claim that it is more selective? I would hope not.</p>
<p>and I highly doubt a 3.9, near perfect SAT would get rejected from UVa any more often than Michigan, despite your apparent empirical claim otherwise, as I would presume there must be something else wrong with the applicant in the case of a rejection from either. Both schools would be equally eager to admit such a student, all things being equal.</p>
<p>Michigan does, however, seek to admit more out of state students than other top publics like UCLA and Cal, but I'm not sure about Virginia. This could definitely play a role in the case above. UNC is ridiculously difficult to get into out of state because of the restrictions imposed... but overall is it more selective than UVa? No.</p>
<p>All this debate over minutia of admissions data completely overlooks which schools offer the best quality of profs, programs, facilities, etc.</p>
<p>berkeley
michigan
virginia
ucla
unc
ucsd
william and marry</p>