@bomerr, I would say that playing up the Trojan Family aspect can’t hurt and may help.
@PurpleTitan
I’ve seen people who have and haven’t talk about it get in.
Regardless I personally wouldn’t mention it because it lumps me in with all the other applicants who have received marketing from USC. Plus wanting to use the school to get a job, in other words personal gain, doesn’t come off endearing to the reader.
That first point is really worth reiterating. If an applicant says the exact same commonly held beliefs or ideas about a university as other students, then they’ll get lumped together with those other students. The entire point of the essay is to separate oneself from the crowd tho.
@bomerr, depends on the schools. Some schools like a mix of different types. There are schools who really want their student body to “fit” well with their school culture, however.
And you can extol the wonderfulness of the Trojan Family (or whatever) without making it seem like you’d be mostly using it to get a job, I hope. Talking about how you’d be excited about giving back to such a great community of kindred spirits probably works better.
@PurpleTitan
“Talking about how you’d be excited about giving back to such a great community of kindred spirits probably works better.”
Every single school wants students who will give back to their community. I said that back on post 27
“if an applicant shows that they have a passion for improving their community, there isn’t any university in America that wouldn’t like that trait.”
See it doesn’t matter what an applicant believes a certain schools “fit” is, with the exception of like MIT, UChicago and few others. All an applicant can do is put their best foot forward and that entails showing the same qualities to all schools.
“On the flip-side as an applicant it would be far too difficult to try and pinpoint the minuscule differences between universities and then try to incorporate that into the essays. Too difficult and impractical. Course offerings and facilities would be the extent of what is realistically possible; which basically boils down to the “why us?” essay.”
Or, “See it doesn’t matter what an applicant believes a certain schools “fit” is, with the exception of like MIT, UChicago and few others. All an applicant can do is put their best foot forward and that entails showing the same qualities to all schools.”
We’re offering you a key. You can choose to consider it. Or not. You don’t get into a fiercely competitive school because YOU want it, you dreamed of it and you think you deserve it.
You get in when they want you.
So, how do you make them want you? You need to know the extent of how they see themselves, what they like and want, not just the bare bones, the generalities. And they turn down lots of nice kids. And many who tug their heartstrings.
As for the Why Us?, it’s supposed to be more than course offerings and facilities. That’s lite. What do you think are the difference between, say, Yale and USC? They are not the same.
“Ah, but when you are older and have developed more wisdom and cunning, these differences become more apparent. A certain number of advisors would be able to direct a motivated applicant in this respect.”
Well, I am older and I hope wiser but I would agree with bomer. I think there are more similarities between the top schools and more similarities in the types of kids they are looking for than differences.
Schools’ similarities: small student/faculty ratio (except the UC types), research, holistic, great peer group, great libraries, tons of ECs, diverse, study abroad, collaborative/not competititive… Even Dartmouth versus Columbia vs. Brown all share these traits.
Students they want: caring/empathetic, help the community, original thinkers, want to make a difference in the world, creative, innovative, good writers, bring interesting talents, unique voice, unusual talents, unusual background. If a student can convey these traits in common essays, it can be used and perhaps fine tuned for each school as needed.
^ these are far too simplistic understandings of the similarities and differences among Elite institutions, implying that the differences are negligible. Whatever’s on their websites is incomplete in terms of that institution’s priorities. While the common app essay may appeal to all colleges & universities (not just the Elites), the supplemental essays and the institution’s own private (not-easily-translatable) concept of what they seek in a student is very different from any general appeal of any mutli-use essay.
Overall, your assessment does not bear out in the trends in acceptances.
I think there are more similarities between the top schools and more similarities in the types of kids they are looking for than differences.
But remember, they cull though all those qualified kids and only take a sliver. You want to be part of the sliver? You don’t get into Dart, Columbia or Brown just based on being yet another high performing kid. They have over 10,000 great kids who could be finalists and only so many seats.
Look, you can assume all it takes is a completed app, good stats, some activities, and good luck. Or you can do a little extra and improve your chances. The tippy tops don’t look at an app and toss it into the Yea or Nay piles. It goes through sequential review stages, the pool narrows. You want to be among the finalists.
Again, I think it’s important to distinguish between the CA essay, which can show many of the common traits that these most selectives like- energy, vision, commitment, resilience and more. But the supps are more focused. It’s where you “show” a match, in various ways. Or not. And match is in their eyes, their estimation. It’s not random. And it’s not based on you being just another “qualified” kid.
Someone gave the example of courting 20 women. Say they meet your requirements, are terrific gals, that any one of them would be good for you. But you don’t just get to tout how great you are and how all 20 women share X and Y traits that you want, really want. In our culture, it’s not one-sided. And nor is it with the elites. It’s a buyer’s market and they are the buyers. Ha.
The slivers add up though. I added up all the bodies that the top schools can actually take in and came up with a number of about 27 or 29K. One’s chances at a particular school may be low but chances of getting into a good to great school is decent if you have top stats and great essays. I never said you should just do the basics. I do think though that expecting kids to research even beyond what is available on their websites is an extraordinary amount of effort and luck that many do not have the resources to do.
Then they take their chances. And we know these colleges will each find their 2000+ kids who did. The admit chances aren’t cumulative- nothing says that if one or two Ivies don’t admit you, your chances magically increase at the next. Or that if 7 reject you, the last one will really want you. Each is independent.
If you’re aiming for a most competitive or highly competitive, you’ve got to at least try to think as these schools do and with the energy and savvy they want their admits to. Otherwise, you just aren’t putting yourself on that level, being the sort of do-er and thinker they want in the class, in the first place. You’re going in blind. Not the best approach.
So kids spend tons of time and energy on ECs in part because they think it would impress colleges yet researching beyond what is on the school’s website is too much effort and luck? OK, man. Feel free to think so.
As for the top schools taking 27K->29K, yes, depending on who you include in the set of “top schools”, though about a quarter of those slots would be for athletes/URM/international/talents (like being good enough at an instrument to be in an orchestra) which the regular unhooked non-URM high-stats American wouldn’t be competing for.
But yes, someone like who I described who has a smart application strategy, can afford to be full-pay anywhere, and really applies him/herself on all their apps has a good chance of ending up at an Ivy/equivalent or at least near-Ivy.
Applying to only HYPSM + a couple Ivies/equivalents and making a desultory effort at a lower-tier school is a good way for that person (assuming no major/top 10-type talent/achievement) to get shut out, however.
There may or may not be more similarities than differences, but the point is that there are differences. It’s not hard to hypothesize that you would have a better chance at each school by addressing the differences, but if you don’t, are your chances necessarily zero?
This is all interesting, but I am hoping to hear more on the original question which has to do with what we know about the actual results of shotgunning the competitive schools once you are deferred at one.
Does anyone know what your new chances of admission become at say, Yale, if you are in the deferred pool?
There are many reasons for deferral, just as there are many reasons for wait list. Deferral essentially turns you into a regular RD candidate, fresh start, so to say. Some schools tell you the number of deferrals that get in later.
But think about this example. A good friend’s son was deferred by a tippy top. I think he’s strong enough for them to have taken a chance on, would be a success there. But I suspect he’s the only one from his hs/district/ local area, who applied ealry. Adcoms may want to wait to see how all the RD candidates from that large area size up. Other kids will come from primarily two urban areas with great hs. Owing to the relative strengths of these other hs and private schools, my young friends chances will change.
@lookingforward
For the most part, college admissions doesn’t work like that. Holistic review is essentially stereotyping. Colleges have archetypes or models of what people from different socio-economic backgrounds should be like.
e.g. a White or Asian person from a top 20 zip code and a HS that offers 12+ APs will be expected to have taken a very rigorous course load and have super star ECs: president of one or more clubs; sports, lots of volunteer hours, maybe summer programs and/or research work done, internships etc.
As long as your friend’s son met the requirements set by the holistic process his chances of admissions would depend entirely on the vibe/tone of the essays. In other words did he stress the factors mentioned in @1203southview great list.
If he didn’t then he is essentially one of those “nice” kids with a high chance of rejection.
The Onion had an article about how on college decision day, the soup kitchen volunteers all quit.
Where do you actually get this stuff, bomerr? “Vibes?” “Stereotyping?” “Depending entirely on the tone of the essay?” Not by a long shot. You are so far off. It is a MYTH that there’s some kind of identical formula the Elites are looking at and “only” or “entirely” the essay will make the difference. Most students with so-called interchangeable formulas are at high risk of rejection, for two reasons: (a) they look like most of their competitors; thus, they do not stand out as different. Students who try to be more and more like each other are defeating themselves; (b) many of those students look transparently to the Elites as if they’re playing some kind of Olympic competitive game, merely for the sake of beating the competition, instead of relishing the experience of learning, and then achieving at what they especially love (which, if genuine and honest, will probably not be everything). And teachers totally observe these kinds of differences and write about that in their recs. Those are the kinds of recs that make one student stand apart from the crowd of voracious applicants.
Looking forward is correct. That’s exactly the principle behind deferral: The committee is saying, Hold On: We will get similar You’s in the Regular Round; we want to see others, too, like you, and in your region, so that we can compare. Otherwise, we may pass on a more treasured applicant from your very region in the Regular Round.
Where essays make “a” or “the” difference is when comparing 2 or 3 highly similar candidates, but even then, it rarely comes down to "entirely’ the essay, unless each one being compared as something so different &6 exceptional (and I’m NOT talking about endless lists of so-called achievements), but a couple of equally UNUSUAL students (in some substantial aspect); perhaps one of the two essays will be more compelling, but only in the context of everything else in the package, including what the institutional needs happen to be this year.
@epiphany
Lots of info from the Stanford and UC folks on Youtube; some news articles as well.
All the essays I’ve read, including the ones who have gotten into top tier schools.
Most important from the real life pragmatic handling of college admissions. i.e the logistics of how colleges screen 30k+ applications.
BTW I don’t see a lot of pragmatism in your words.
Works Cited:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=96XL8vBBB7o
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FrQhyCoxxSg
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/08/04/education/edlife/lifting-the-veil-on-the-holistic-process-at-the-university-of-california-berkeley.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0
Bomerr, you yankin’ our chains? I’m calling you on this. At the very least, you should be listening, not telling us, as epiphany and I have relevant experience. You’ve indicated elsewhere that you want to transfer to a top school.
You are seriously confusing what goes into the wide end of the funnel and what makes it out the other side, as admits.
And those who sleepwalk through it, assuming it’s some sort of "canned"process, are making a serious mistake.
Epiphany, much is made on CC of “standing out.” But in these immense pools of theoretically qualified candidates, standing out is often the simple matter of having recognized the (sometimes bland) steps it takes to advance oneself. I call that a life skill. Eg, on CC, some make fun of pre-meds who go work in a hospital, saying that it’s cliche, especially among Asian Americans. But it’s savvy to get that experience in the milieu you purport to want so much. It can be a bit of “show, not tell.” Even if they did it because someone else told them they should, bottom line is they did it. And all the while, some other kids don’t, because they got the notion it would be…well…cliche. Huh?
@lookingforward
@epiphany
You guys are both speaking far too much theory without any pragmatism. Go read the NY Times article and you’ll see for yourselves how much of the process truly is canned.
I’m personally not taking the shotgun approach to college admissions but I have done a LOT of extensive research. I got rejected from Berkeley last year because I applied without really knowing what schools are looking for in students, the so called “generic” stuff you guys seem to be so against. So I’ve revamped my application this year and we’ll see in March if i get into an Ivy.