What Do You Guys Think as the Public Ivies?

<p>vicissitudes, congrats on your 2,000th post.</p>

<p>your points are all well taken (though I do stick by my main point - which is simply that looping in the likes of an Oxford / Cambridge into a pool of US publics is very much the definition of mixing apples and oranges ... and this doesn't even get into the fundamental differences between the two educational systems (political, historical, cultural, economic or otherwise) of the two different countries in question: a case and point being something as simple as the term "public school" which in the UK means the opposite of what it does in the US...)</p>

<p>at any rate, i think your last point is absolutely reasonable and i'm happy to leave it at that.</p>

<p>I find it interesting how Berkeley fans completely ignore the difference between UNIVERSITY quality and UNDERGRAD quality.</p>

<p>[ol]
[<em>]UC Berkeley
[</em>]Virginia
[<em>]Michigan
[</em>]UCLA
[li]UNC Chapel Hill[/li][/ol]</p>

<p>Amherst, Williams, Swarthmore, a few other LACs, and most of the Ivies have financial resources that no public universities, good as they may be, could dream of. I'm a freshman at Amherst and already I've been granted a fellowship for this winter. And the faculty here is incredible and, better yet, I know them personally. Berkeley, Michigan, etc are all fantastic, but in terms of an undergraduate education, it's hard to top.</p>

<p>Is that why some publics have libraries that dwarf most of the Ivy schools and other specialized engineering, computer and science labs that most privates don't have? You have no idea of the financial resources of some of the top publics. With a little effort you can get to know any prof you have at a large school. Few kids ever go to office hours except right before an exam.</p>

<p>Cornell, Dartmouth, Yale, Princeton, Penn, Brown, and Columbia have an intra-library exchange system - over 90,000,000 volumes are available in 2 days to any student or faculty in the participating schools.</p>

<p>The U.S. service academies have to be on the list somewhere...</p>

<p>
[quote]
Cornell, Dartmouth, Yale, Princeton, Penn, Brown, and Columbia have an intra-library exchange system - over 90,000,000 volumes are available

[/quote]
</p>

<p>This is the sort of throw-away factoid that makes me crazy, and is much harder to track down than you might think. For example, by using a combination of Wikipedia and the schools' own websites, I come up with a reported number of about 50 million, which is complicated by the fact that some schools lump all items in together -- books, bound periodicals, maps, loose sheets of music, unbound manuscripts, and all manner of odds and ends. The University of California claims 34 million volumes -- but only includes books. There is no standard for what is included in gomestar's list, and Dartmouth doesn't mention the number of items in its libraries anywhere I can find in a reasonably-short Web search, but if we allow it the average of 7 million items from the other schools on gomestar's list, the total items comes to 50 million. If we use reported lists of volumes vs other items for some of these schools, I'm betting the actual number of bound volumes at something under 30 million. At more than 4 million books per college, this is still a fantastic collection, but well under the 90 million claimed.</p>

<p>FWIW, UC Irvine collected its millionth volume when I was an undergrad -- and the school was only about 10 years old. Also, FWIW, the UC is part of a much larger inter-library exchange program that can bring in volumes from universities all over the world. It can take two or three weeks, but they are available.</p>

<p>"Amherst, Williams, Swarthmore, a few other LACs, and most of the Ivies have financial resources that no public universities, good as they may be, could dream of."</p>

<p>At the same time, Amherst, Williams, Swarthmore, a few other LACs, and most of the Ivies can only dream of the faculty quality, libraries, and cultural resources available at some of the top publics. What does the spending per student matter when the best museums, libraries, performing arts centers and scholars cannot be found at Amherst, but at a public school like UT-Austin? </p>

<p>"Cornell, Dartmouth, Yale, Princeton, Penn, Brown, and Columbia have an intra-library exchange system - over 90,000,000 volumes are available in 2 days to any student or faculty in the participating schools."</p>

<p>Regular circulating materials are of no concern - and in fact the Internet has certainly leveled the playing field for lesser libraries in terms of simple published content. What about the material that does not and cannot circulate (i.e., the original manuscripts and primary sources available only at the world's greatest libraries)? The fact is Amherst, Williams, and basically every Ivy except perhaps Harvard and Yale come nowhere near matching the holdings of UT-Austin's Ransom Humanities Research Center. In fact, the only libraries in the world with a greater concentration of holdings in British, French, and American original manuscripts, rare books, art, and photography of some of the greatest figures in history are the LOC, NY Public Library, British Library, and the Bibliotheque Nationale (the latter two only in their respective areas). Throw in UT's separate Benson Collection, and you have the largest Latin American collection in the world. If you need to do research at the original source, you can only do it at the institutions that possess the primary archives. This is what the LACs and lesser Ivies cannot match compared to some of the top publics. Princeton and Columbia have in fact complained about this disadvantage.</p>

<p>WashDad-</p>

<p>you are correct in the assumption that the number of BOOKS is about 40-50 million (verified through an older Cornell site), though the collection of various academic documents (research papers, academic journals and periodicles, all of that good stuff) will total around 88 million items (it was on the wikipedia site you went to). </p>

<p>"the only libraries in the world with a greater concentration of holdings in British, French, and American original manuscripts, rare books, art, and photography of some of the greatest figures in history"</p>

<p>we're talking about current academicly relevant books, not museum pieces. </p>

<p>But, since you mention it, do you have any numbers to prove what you say about UT-Austin?? I just want to know how it compares to say, Cornell, whose website states: "The Division of Rare and Manuscript Collections includes 300,000 printed volumes, more than 70 million manuscripts, and another million photographs, paintings, prints, and other visual media"</p>

<p>The info I could find on UT's library system:</p>

<p>
[quote]
The university is home to seven museums and seventeen libraries, which hold over eight million volumes.[15] The holdings of the university's Harry Ransom Humanities Research Center include one of only twenty-one remaining complete copies of the Gutenberg Bible worldwide and the world's earliest-known photograph: View from the Window at Le Gras taken by Nic</p>

<p>"But, since you mention it, do you have any numbers to prove what you say about UT-Austin?? I just want to know how it compares to say, Cornell, whose website states: "The Division of Rare and Manuscript Collections includes 300,000 printed volumes, more than 70 million manuscripts, and another million photographs, paintings, prints, and other visual media""</p>

<p>Yes... UT-Austin's Humanities library has been very controversial since the 1960s when massive sums were used to buy up literally every scrap of 19th and 20th century British manuscripts. British institutions could not afford to keep up with the lavish spending of American institutions, with UT-Austin in the lead. The London Independent, along with the rest of the British press literally have singled out UT for years for "absconding with Britain's cultural heritage." Basically, British tax laws made it more favorable for British authors to sell their works and British cultural institutions didn't have the wealth of their American counterparts. There are many sources where you can read of UT's massive spending, especially in the decades of the 1950s-1970s, which resulted in Austin having one of the Greatest libraries in the world.</p>

<p>For starters:
"Great Libraries" by Anthony Hobson. Only a handful of American libraries were included in the list of the world's greatest libraries - the LOC, NY Public Library, Huntington, Harvard, Yale, and UT-Austin.</p>

<p>"A Gentle Madness" by Nicholas Basbanes - an entire chapter devoted to what UT accomplished</p>

<p>An excellent summary of the Ransom and controversies it generated:
<a href="http://www.statesman.com/specialreports/content/specialreports/ransom/17mainransom.html%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.statesman.com/specialreports/content/specialreports/ransom/17mainransom.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>"A feeling of reverence overwhelmed Alan Tannenbaum. Alone in a gallery on the University of Texas campus, the IBM software engineer ran his eyes over a glass case containing a small, red book.</p>

<p>"There's always something people would die to have," said Tannenbaum. He was looking at a first edition of "Alice's Adventures in Wonderland," part of a Ransom Center exhibit about Lewis Carroll, the author, mathematician and photographer. "I knew this priceless book was somewhere in the center, but to be alone with it was more than I could absorb that early morning."</p>

<p>The object of Tannenbaum's affection, an 1865 edition of "Alice" in very good condition, survived suppression by Carroll and his illustrator, John Tenniel, who disliked the printing quality. Donated to a children's hospital by Carroll, the book traveled to India, where it was purchased for the equivalent of 30 cents, and finally was sold at a London auction to an American mathematician, whose library landed it in the middle of Texas.</p>

<p>Today, the "India Alice," one of 23 surviving copies of the first edition, is valued at almost $1 million.</p>

<p>It's just one treasure in the vast trove of the Harry H. Ransom Humanities Research Center at UT. Ranked among the top three American cultural archives of its kind — after the Library of Congress and the New York Public Library — the Ransom's $1 billion collection contains 40 million rare books, manuscripts, photographs and works of art. </p>

<p>The accumulation of so many gems, most collected during a 13-year period encompassing the 1960s, was attended by a fair amount of controversy. Critics abroad say the center drained Europe of its cultural heritage and sent it to Texas. Massive spending — estimated as high as $55 million in the center's first decade — from secret accounts contributed to the downfall of two university leaders, Harry Huntt Ransom, founder of the archives, and UT President Stephen Spurr.</p>

<p>""There's a good deal of awe at the speed at which the Ransom has been able to build such extensive collections by the dint of a lot of energy and a good deal of money," said Jean Ashton, director of the rare books and manuscript library at Columbia University. "We admire it and are more than a little bit jealous.""</p>

<p>and a good discussion of Princeton's inability to compete:
<a href="http://www.princeton.edu/%7Epaw/archive_new/PAW05-06/05-1116/features_manuscript.html%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.princeton.edu/~paw/archive_new/PAW05-06/05-1116/features_manuscript.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>"Horowitz confirms that. He did not call Princeton about the Mailer papers. Why bother? He knew that Princeton almost certainly would not match the kind of money he could expect to get from the Ransom Center. Horowitz believes it’s a simple difference of priorities. “At Texas,” he says, “they have identified the pursuit of literary scholarship through original manuscripts as a way of being in the world. Princeton, for whatever reason, does not seem to share this sentiment.”"</p>

<p>"The Ransom’s awesome holdings, which for some time have exerted something like a gravitational pull on other contemporary authors, make it more likely that in the future other writers will want to be part of this amazing collection." </p>

<p>read all about the collections at the Ransom site:
<a href="http://www.hrc.utexas.edu/%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.hrc.utexas.edu/&lt;/a>
Celebrating its 50th anniversary in 2007, the Harry Ransom Center has evolved into a world-renowned cultural institution. The Ransom Center houses the Gutenberg Bible (ca. 1455), the First Photograph (ca. 1826), film archives of David O. Selznick and Robert De Niro, paintings by Frida Kahlo and Diego Rivera, and major manuscript collections of James Joyce, Ernest Hemingway, T. S. Eliot, D. H. Lawrence, Isaac Bashevis Singer, Tennessee Williams, and Norman Mailer, to name but a few of its treasures. The Center presents numerous public exhibitions and events featuring materials from its rich holdings and is used extensively for research by students and scholars from around the world...The Center's collections contain over 36 million leaves of manuscripts, over one million rare books, five million photographs, three thousand pieces of historical photographic equipment, and 100,000 works of art, in addition to major holdings in theater arts and film. </p>

<p>And what's really fascinating is this is just one library at UT!! UT's Benson Latin American collection, on the other side of campus, is one of the world's largest collections of Latin American manuscripts and literature. UT's new Blanton art museum is now the largest university art museum on any American campus as well, with one of the largest collections of Renaissance and Baroque art outside of Europe, as well as one of the largest contemporary Latin American collections in the world.</p>

<p>Cornell is just really not in the same league... it's about quality as well as quantity. Cornell's collecting has not generated anywhere near the level of controversy UT-Austin generated.</p>

<p>"we're talking about current academically relevant books, not museum pieces. "</p>

<p>but original manuscripts ARE academically relevant. It doesn't have to be the latest science journal (not that UT and the other top publics don't have well equipped technical libraries as well), but to do original research, sometimes you have to go to the very first source.</p>

<p>Here's another quote from "A Gentle Madness" (Basbanes), regarding the French perspective on UT's collection:
"How important is the Carlton Lake Collection? Florence de Lussy, conservateur en chef de manuscrits at the Bibliotheque Nationale in Paris, had a straightforward answer... "Remarkable," she said... "In certain areas, for example Paul Valery, the most important writer in 20th century France, you must go to Texas if you want to study the man thoroughly... Consequently, the Carlton Lake Collection is essential, and very well known here in France. I wish it were here and not there."</p>

<p>I would say that's academically relevant. And it certainly isn't available by intra-library loan...</p>

<p>virginia
michigan
berkeley
wisconsin
illinois
texas
maryland</p>

<p>B-e-r-k-e-l-e-y</p>

<p>I am not a current Berkeley student but I know a lot of people who have gone to this world famous school.</p>

<p>berkeley is so famous that almost all countries in the world, have a very active alumni association. In the Philippines, where I am from, no less than the first born son of the president of the republic is the president of the Berkeley association of the Philippines. Each an every country, there is one like it. (My uncle, a Berkeley alum, once brought me to one in Singapore in 2003.) Just look at Berkeley's graduates -- they're quite successful. I think that alone will tell you that it is a very hard school to beat. Overall, I think only Harvard is better than it, in the US.</p>

<p>Overall, I would rank Berkeley number 4 in the world:</p>

<p>1/2/3/ = Harvard/Cambridge/Oxford
4 = Berkeley
5/6/7 = Stanford/MIT/Yale</p>

<p>I hope I don't get banned for saying this.</p>

<p>
[quote]
I am not a current Berkeley student but I know a lot of people who have gone to this world famous school.</p>

<p>berkeley is so famous that almost all countries in the world, have a very active alumni association. In the Philippines, where I am from, no less than the first born son of the president of the republic is the president of the Berkeley association of the Philippines. Each an every country, there is one like it. (My uncle, a Berkeley alum, once brought me to one in Singapore in 2003.) Just look at Berkeley's graduates -- they're quite successful. I think that alone will tell you that it is a very hard school to beat. Overall, I think only Harvard is better than it, in the US.</p>

<p>Overall, I would rank Berkeley number 4 in the world:</p>

<p>1/2/3/ = Harvard/Cambridge/Oxford
4 = Berkeley
5/6/7 = Stanford/MIT/Yale</p>

<p>I hope I don't get banned for saying this.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Nobody is going to ban you for saying that, as that's just your opinion. We all have the right to our opinions. </p>

<p>But having said that, I think you will find that, at the undergraduate level, very few Americans are going to turn down Stanford/MIT/Yale for Berkeley. At the PhD level, that's a different story, and Berkeley is competitive with anybody. </p>

<p>
[quote]
In the Philippines, where I am from, no less than the first born son of the president of the republic is the president of the Berkeley association of the Philippines.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>But here, I am confused. So you are saying that Miguel Aboitiz is the son of Gloria Macapagal-Arroyo? </p>

<p><a href="http://international.berkeley.edu/alumni.html%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://international.berkeley.edu/alumni.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>
[quote]
Is that why some publics have libraries that dwarf most of the Ivy schools and other specialized engineering, computer and science labs that most privates don't have?

[/quote]
</p>

<p>
[quote]
The fact is Amherst, Williams, and basically every Ivy except perhaps Harvard and Yale come nowhere near matching the holdings of UT-Austin's Ransom Humanities Research Center. In fact, the only libraries in the world with a greater concentration of holdings in British, French, and American original manuscripts, rare books, art, and photography of some of the greatest figures in history are the LOC, NY Public Library, British Library, and the Bibliotheque Nationale (the latter two only in their respective areas).

[/quote]
</p>

<p>
[quote]
you are correct in the assumption that the number of BOOKS is about 40-50 million (verified through an older Cornell site), though the collection of various academic documents (research papers, academic journals and periodicles, all of that good stuff) will total around 88 million items (it was on the wikipedia site you went to).

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Personally, I find this entire subthread to be rather irrelevant, for 2 reasons.</p>

<h1>1 - It doesn't matter what resources your school has. It only matters what resources you as a student can access. So if we're talking about libraries, what that means is that what you really care about is access to a huge library collection regardless of who actually owns it, then it seems to me that what you should care about is simply going to a school in a large city - i.e. New York. By doing so, you get full access to the absolutely gigantic system of the 3 libraries of New York (the NYPL, the Brooklyn Public Library, and the Queens Borough Public Library)</h1>

<p>The same thing is true of 'cultural resources'. No school - not even Harvard - can match the total cultural resources of any large and old city. For example, it's hard for me to imagine * any * school that can match the total cultural resources available in New York, or London, or Paris, or Los Angeles, or Philadelphia, or any other large well-established city. For example, there isn't a single university music center in the world that is going to match Carnegie Hall. There isn't a single university museum that is going to match the Met, MOMA, or the Guggenheim. </p>

<p>So when you're talking about which school offers a vast range of resources, it seems to me that this is far more a function of the location of the school than the resources of the school itself. Swarthmore, for example, does not have huge resources. But it is in Philadelphia. I am fairly certain that the entire plethora of resources in Philadelphia matches up extremely well with the entire set of resources available in, say, Austin, Texas. For example, does Austin have an art gallery that is really as good as the Philadelphia Musem of Art? </p>

<h1>2 - More importantly, I think it's all irrelevant anyway. Let's face it. The vast majority of undergrads at any school don't really care about access to a huge library filled with original materials to do research, simply because most undergrads are not going to be doing original research anyway. For example, at UTAustin, as I'm sure you must agree, the vast majority of students are not interested in accessing the full resources of the university. Most students in any university are not interested.</h1>

<p>The truth is, whether we like it or not, the vast majority of students at any school are there not really to learn, and certainly not to do research. They are there to advance their careers. Nothing more, nothing less. If a college degree was not going to help them get a good job, most of them wouldn't be going to college. They just want their tickets punched so that they can either get a job or go off to graduate school (and after that, get a job). </p>

<p>So I think the far more relevant question is, will the school help you to get a job. While I don't have the UTAustin career stats on me, I do have the Berkeley stats. Frankly, (and sadly), it's not that impressive. While some Berkeley grads, notably the EECS/CS guys, do quite well, others, like the Ethnic Studies or the Theatre/Performance Studies grads, don't do well at all. </p>

<p><a href="http://career.berkeley.edu/CarDest/2005Majors.stm#salary%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://career.berkeley.edu/CarDest/2005Majors.stm#salary&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>I don't think that comparing resources like libraries is totally irrelevant - I only brought up the topic because somebody else did and I thought they were a little off - but, besides that I think it can have an important impact on an undergraduate's life. </p>

<p>I agree with your assessment of access to resources and with the proximity to a city - though, there are certain times when even a city won't do. I'm referring to the 'specialized' libraries that universities tend to have while cities don't - for instance, at Cornell, I'm at the ILR school. We have a library dedicated to exactly what we study, and it's the 2nd largest collection of related books in the world (1st is the ILO in Geneva, Switzerland) - all of the book in there may very well be located someplace throughout NYC, but I sure as hell don't want to search for them there. The same can be held true for other niche fields. </p>

<p>"The vast majority of undergrads at any school don't really care about access to a huge library filled with original materials to do research, simply because most undergrads are not going to be doing original research anyway"</p>

<p>Sometimes true, though not always. I'm not involved in independent research of my own outside of the class (I'm a research assistant for a professer here), though I have had to use the library system to do resarch for numerous papers, and I currently have a book from Princeton that I used for a paper a few weeks ago (which reminds me, it's probably due sometime very soon). For me, it's not the fact that I'll be needing to use the entomology library anytime soon, but rather the fact that I can if I need to. I think it's more up to the student to decide if they want to use the resources on hand or not. Some will and some wont ... but all will have the opportunity to.</p>

<p>nm.................................................</p>