What do you think... is med school worth it for the kids?

<p>Curm: **post #181 from afan **provides very good advices. I quoted the last two paragraphs here.</p>

<p>***Is this the best career you can find? Depends. What are your talents? If you are creative, brilliant, and ambitious - not the career for you. </p>

<p>If you are conventional, traditional, very comfortable with authority, and not too concerned about accomplishment and autonomy- could be fine.***</p>

<p>If you kids belong to the group in the first paragraph, then do something else first. If that path does not work out after a few years of trying, he/she can always go back to medicine. That is how I gave advice to my kids. Whether they listen or not is a different issue. </p>

<p>Medicine has lots of problems, but doctors generally can find jobs easily, as long as he/she is willing to adjust. When you describe a kid who only likes science/med and nothing else, this kid needs to learn to adjust. I work in health field and still like what I do. I would not discourage anyone from medicine. Like afan said, if the kid is brilliant, creative, and ambitious (for example: if the kid can get into Harvard/Yale law, can easily get >170 in LSAT without that much struggle), I would suggest that he/she goes to Harvard/Yale law rather than Harvard/Yale medicine. I hope that make sense to you.</p>

<p>
[quote]
When you describe a kid who only likes science/med and nothing else, this kid needs to learn to adjust.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>My goodness , who said that? </p>

<p>What I said was
[quote]
I'm talking about a kid who has absolutely no interest in business, law, banking, investments, foreign affairs, government policy (except for science). None. Zippo . Nada.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>LOL. That leaves a whole lot of things to be interested in , just not that many that are traditionally thrown up as excellent careers. </p>

<p>Why would a kid who could possibly get into HLS but had zero interest in being a lawyer (as I stated in my example) go to HLS? That's not a rhetorical question either.;) </p>

<p>I personally think that brilliant, ambitious kids should go into any field they want to pursue. If money is an objective, they'll find a way to make it. Or they won't. Either way , they are doing what they want to do. </p>

<p>And BTW in small city closest to where I live the world y'all are describing is just not the same world I see. Admittedly I only represent and ride motorcycles with docs, but their $ and lifestyle are not what y'all are portraying. Maybe I only hang with top docs. ;) I can't explain it. That's why I have been so curious on this thread. </p>

<p>I can list twenty physicians by name that just don't live in the $100,000/year 90 hour work-week y'all describe. One raises livestock on a ranch near mine and spends oodles of time and never-recovered money on them. (Ortho) One goes on overnight motorcycle trips with me several times in the past and also travels extensively with his other passion-photography. (Plastics) One lives directly across the road from me and he does work significant hours but he's young and within a few years of primary care "doctoring" he purchased 50 acres of land and built (what I consider ) a showplace house and grounds. Family/inherited money was not involved in any of these situations (although the plastic surgeon is married to a "retired" doctor).</p>

<p>I trust and respect the opinions and scenarios y'all are offering. I'm just saying that doesn't sound like my block but my block may be the outlier.</p>

<p>There are always options. Students who want to graduate from med school with low-debt or no-debt have options, such as agreeing to work for rural areas for certain number of years, etc. Doctors who don't want to mess with so much paperwork and dealing with insurance companies, etc, can choose to work for large practices - maybe for less money, but also for more regular hours, etc. I know that medicine is no longer the place for guaranteed wealth and big money, but if one chooses wisely (low-cost med school options, funded phd/md programs, etc) and has reasonable expectations, it beats being a janitor or maid or elementary school teacher or most other jobs. Come on! Every job has its frustrations and stresses. Curm, I think we have a lot of the "glass half-emptiers" on this thread!!!</p>

<p>Maybe y'all ought to ride your pygmy pony to Montana be a dental floss tycoon (or maybe a doc after all ;)). </p>

<p>BillingsGazette.com</a> :: Market drives hospital salaries</p>

<p>
[quote]
That honor goes to two heart surgeons on staff at St. Patrick Hospital in Missoula, with salaries in fiscal year 2004 of $721,000 each.</p>

<p>Physicians specializing in cancer treatment also earn as much as $600,000 a year at Montana hospitals.

[/quote]
Yip-ee chi-o chi-ay. ;)</p>

<p>I've found med school prof's over $500K (Vanderbilt), too. I just don't get where y'all are all gloom and doom. The docs in most demand seem to still be well compensated, don't they?</p>

<p>This thread is interesting but I'm not sure to whom. It seems like it's for parents who want to "have" or not " have" their kids go into medicine. I just don't see that as my role. I know I may subtly reinforce or discourage choices, and I think it would be pretty exciting if my kid really wanted a medical career, but it seems like the "burn" has to come from the student. Without that, I can't imagine trying to be all that encouraging about how it's worth it. For kids who REALLY want it, I say "wow, that's cool". For kids who are doing it for their parents, I wouldn't want to be taking all those calls from them about how life sucks.</p>

<p>Who on this thread is encouraging their child to be a doc? I missed that part. Now the discourage part- I read those. LOL. But no encourage posts. Heck, I'd like to read one if it's here. Point it out.</p>

<p>Someone cited a lower debt burden than others (e.g. 120k not 200+) however don't forget that there is often a huge difference between 'educational' debt and overall debt. Whilst in med school you still need a roof over your head, food on the table and other basic living expenses (e.g. a car depending on where you are)... these things also cost a lot of money and, given that most folks don't have second jobs at that time, results in additional debt. The flip side of this equation, the income bit, has seen lots of comments, but there are several overall comments that I think everyone would agree on:</p>

<ul>
<li><p>The debt picture is not pretty, no matter how you look at it.</p></li>
<li><p>Even if you do end up in a position that pays well in the long term, that's only after an extended period of relative hardship. A very conservative estimate would be to say that you'll be in your early 30s until you can start doing some of the desired things (buy a house, drive a nice car, have some 'free' money, start meaningful retirement savings) that many friends will have done up to a decade prior to you.</p></li>
<li><p>General rule of thumb... don't go into medicine if a major ambition in life is to make a lot of money and live an upper class lifestyle. There's no question that can still happen in some cases, but it often doesn't. Furthermore, the future is very uncertain and all the pressures on salaries down the line are only negative. The future is a picture of more regulation, more oversight, more standardization, and less freedom, less entrepenurialship and less self-control (the sorts of things that, in a lot of other fields, often allow one to break away and become 'self made'). </p></li>
</ul>

<p>Now, much of this thread has focused on the financial aspects (name debt and salary). However, let's not forget that this is only one part of a much larger overall picture to consider. </p>

<p>Someone mentioned that a career practicing medicine isn't very compatible with the 'Type A' or ambitious and overachieving types. This is very true and another factor to consider (especially since most people applying to med school would likely fit into this group). </p>

<p>In the past, an MD was an employer and 'the boss.' Today, and into the future, the MD is largely an employee. For the 'Type A' and ambitious, creative and overachieving individual this alone is likely to be the source of much more discontent than any financial situation. </p>

<p>On the whole, relative to most other positions for highly educated individuals (e.g. doctorates) an MD has much less individual freedom in the day-to-day life of their career. It's a, very unfortunate, reality that an MD is essentially a cog in a much larger machine (e.g. the HMO). Even if down the line we end up with a quasi-governmental health care system that might help fix some of the financial problems of today, but it won't change the career picture in terms of the MD as an 'employee.' </p>

<p>Again, I don't think we've seen anyone on here saying "don't go to med school" just saying "make sure you know what you're signing up for" because all too often young and eager students have no idea about reality.</p>

<p>Finally, on a side note there were a few comments about research and someone suggesting that an MD was much better if someone wanted to enter a research career. This might be true in a tiny minority of cases (e.g. some specialized medical research with a clinical aspect), but on the whole an MD doesn't add that much to the prospects for a research career in general. </p>

<p>Remember that not all research is medical research and even in the medical research arena much of the groundbreaking work occurs far from patients... most of it is in test tubes on cultured cells and generally by PhDs as practical medical training has little relevance to such research. The MD (or where an MD/PhD may help career wise) would generally come into play towards the very end of a major breakthrough or study (when things move from the lab and into a clinical environment for testing and study) but if one has an interest in pure research up front then, apart from a few specialized cases, there isn't much point in going to medical school.</p>

<p>
[quote]
Again, I don't think we've seen anyone on here saying "don't go to med school" just saying "make sure you know what you're signing up for" because all too often young and eager students have no idea about reality.

[/quote]
How about this one?

[quote]
Is this the best career you can find? Depends. What are your talents? If you are creative, brilliant, and ambitious - not the career for you.

[/quote]
That sounds a lot like don't be a doc to me (for those who fit the description). Does it have a different meaning to y'all?</p>

<p>I know quite a few families who have kids who have either applied to medical school, are in medical school or are now doing internship/residency programs. These are kids who knew that they wanted to pursue a medical career since they were in elementary school. It was obvious to friends/family from the beginning that there was a true passion or calling to the profession, and they're are pursuing medicine with quite a bit of enthusiasm. There are so many fields in medicine that it is possible for someone to choose one that best fits their type of personality and lifestyle. H is in laboratory medicine, and his lifestyle is such that he works regular hours during the day, there isn't really any nightcall, no autopsies, etc. He is still a physician, but is not having to work 60+ hours a week and having to deal with insurance companies, because pathologists are usually either on salary or fee for service. The field of anesthesiology is another specialization which happens to be very lucrative, and since the top-notch residency programs tend to take many candidates, it's very feasible for someone who is interested in that specialization to secure one of these coveted programs.</p>

<p>
[quote]
How about this one?

[/quote]
</p>

<p>I would never tell someone not to go to med school, just make sure they know the reality and then let them make up their own mind. Stating one's own personal opinion on the matter based on their own experience and conversations is a lot different from instructing everyone not to go to med school. For the right person with the right motivations and realistic career and lifestyle aspirations it can be a very fulfilling career.</p>

<p>For anyone who spends some time browsing the pre-med forums you'll see that there's a not insignificant number of the "I'm going to be rolling in cash and chillin' at the country club most days" types there. These are the ones that really should pay attention to the comments here. There are others that have their heads screwed on and are more realistic about the realities... these are the ones that will likely do fine and won't be disappointed down the line.</p>

<p>Agreed rocketman.</p>

<p>Just for fun here are the actual current Gov'ment numbers
all numbers are the mean</p>

<p>Family and General Practice ** Anesthesiologist **Surgeon</p>

<p>Physicians offices-$156,110 ** $191,440 ****** $190,670
Hospitals-**<em>$142,760 *</em> $153,060
Outpatient Clinics $166,530 **$169,700</p>

<p>Here's others that are sometimes mentioned as alternatives:</p>

<p>(I picked the highest sub-category in each.)
Petro eng- $112,000
Bio-med eng- $93,000
Architect -$79,440
Elec eng-$90,190
Comp Software eng-$84,610
Non-government lawyer- $119,390</p>

<p>BTW, I couldn't find any occupations with salaries higher than Family and GP, much less the others shown. Now, I admit I wasn't there very long, maybe 5 minutes. ;)</p>

<p>For those who want a link, I think this works. Scroll down to "Healthcare Practitioner" and then click on the specific category. General</a> Medical and Surgical Hospitals - May 2006 OES Industry-Specific Occupational Employment and Wage Estimates There doesn't seem to be an 2007. Or if so, I didn't see it.</p>

<p>If half the docs make more than the mean (:)) , is it really all that bad? And if so, compared to what?</p>

<p>curmudgeon, (Re: Presentation of Salary Data)</p>

<p>Much of this thread had dealt with salary info, but the reality is that any of those positions could easily put someone in a position to be 'financially happy' (e.g. make much more than most people do). I would just point out though that, as has been frequently mentioned, simply posting the average salary of one of those positions glosses over the whole financial picture so it's not quite that simple either. So much of this thread has focused on back and forth regarding earnings and, whilst this is important, it's only one of many different issues to consider. </p>

<p>Beyond a certain point (e.g. once you're in the top 15% of earners as most people with advanced degrees are) ones salary contributes very little towards ones career happiness. </p>

<p>It's all the other things that actually matter much much more in the end... for example that's why it's been mentioned that a career as a physician often isn't a very good match for a 'Type A' overachieving type who wants to be 'in charge.' </p>

<p>These are the sorts of factors that make much more of a difference and are far more relevant than fighting over if ones in the top 5 or top 10% of folks on their income tax returns.</p>

<p>(Interesting side note regarding income, as it seems to be a consistently mentioned topic even if it's only a small part of the big picture... I once saw a study which showed that 15% of Americans self identified themselves as being in the top 1% of earners in the country! which further highlights that people spend far too much time thinking about how they compare with the neighbors even though just about every study ever done shows that beyond a certain point, money has very little to do with ones overall happiness and well-being)</p>

<p>
[quote]
There are always options. Students who want to graduate from med school with low-debt or no-debt have options, such as agreeing to work for rural areas for certain number of years, etc. Doctors who don't want to mess with so much paperwork and dealing with insurance companies, etc, can choose to work for large practices - maybe for less money, but also for more regular hours, etc. I know that medicine is no longer the place for guaranteed wealth and big money, but if one chooses wisely (low-cost med school options, funded phd/md programs, etc) and has reasonable expectations, it beats being a janitor or maid or elementary school teacher or most other jobs. Come on! Every job has its frustrations and stresses. Curm, I think we have a lot of the "glass half-emptiers" on this thread!!!

[/quote]
</p>

<p>This is good advice. There are always options for the people who think paying back loans is one of the worst parts of being a physician. All of them involve compromises of course:</p>

<ol>
<li>Practice in a rural area.</li>
<li>Practice in the military</li>
<li>Practice in a primary care fields</li>
<li>NIH Funded MSTP programs</li>
<li>Do research at the NIH.</li>
</ol>

<p>There are programs that provide loan-forgiveness as well as a stipend in exchange for the same number of years of service. (ie if the NIH pays back 4 years of loans, you have to do research for them for 4 years). It's not free money but if you're saying that physicians don't make much money anyway, then it's not much of a tradeoff.</p>

<p>
[quote]
Someone cited a lower debt burden than others (e.g. 120k not 200+) however don't forget that there is often a huge difference between 'educational' debt and overall debt. Whilst in med school you still need a roof over your head, food on the table and other basic living expenses (e.g. a car depending on where you are)... these things also cost a lot of money and, given that most folks don't have second jobs at that time, results in additional debt.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>I'm not talking about "educational" debt. I'm talking about overall debt accumulated during medical school. Medical school budgets include things like personal expenses, travel, health insurance, books, rent, food, etc. Thus, schools and the fed govt offers you loans and grants to cover everything, not just tuition. And the numbers are still 130k/150k on average for public/private med schools.</p>

<p>Here's a 2000 link. </p>

<p>Offices</a> and Clinics of Doctors of Medicine - 2000 OES Industry-Specific Occupational Employment and Wage Estimates</p>

<p>I'll let y'all see for yourselves what our gov'ment says about wage decline/growth for docs, 2000-2006. I don't want to have to pull the arrows out of my rear.</p>

<p>I agree, rocketman. Wages are not a large part of the story but it seems to some posters ambitious, brilliant kids need to avoid medicine. I'm just trying to figure out why that is and they keep mentioning wages (among other things) . That's why I posted the links. Why guess and speculate about the rate of "decline" when the data is available with a couple of mouse clicks?</p>

<p>Is it possible that what is happening is that the numbers are being normed? Everyone is moving to the middle, but the middle is going up while the tip top is going down preciptously? Anybody have another way to explain the difference between the government figures linked and the impressions (and personal reality) of our physician posters? Recognize I am NOT doubting their reality as posted, just wondering if it is a matter of perspective. Maybe they were at the very top of a pay scale where the top is dropping like a rock. I know that my reality is far different than that of a Wall Street attorney, even a Dallas attorney. But I'm telling y'all our docs are doing O.K. in the center of Texas. If a mid-doc can make almost $200K a dang good one can sure make $250K and around here you can live well. It's pretty much peel me a grape , Delilah.</p>

<p>
[quote]
I'm not talking about "educational" debt. I'm talking about overall debt accumulated during medical school. Medical school budgets include things like personal expenses, travel, health insurance, books, rent, food, etc. Thus, schools and the fed govt offers you loans and grants to cover everything, not just tuition. And the numbers are still 130k/150k on average for public/private med schools.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>I'm not doubting that a study found those numbers to be correct 'on average', just pointing out that you shouldn't fall for the 'fallacy of average.' As any statistician will tell you average and reality generally have nothing to do with one another. If someones getting some financial assistance from their parents (as many use to get the 'average' number will be) then those numbers might be realistic, but for someone who's not having the parents foot some of the bill then they're almost certainly going to graduate med school with much more than 130k of debt.</p>

<p>Not to mention of course that even 130k of debt isn't exactly small change.</p>

<p>Fight amongst yourselves. ;) </p>

<p>I've got to run or get divorced, and even for a poor lawyer that's still expensive.</p>