What do you think... is med school worth it for the kids?

Parents Forum
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<p>MD can certainly be a more reliable career than research PhD. In the life sciences, MD's in research, particularly if they have PhD's do get more responsibility and more respect than PhD's alone. This does appear to extend beyond the simple logic that clinically-trained MD's can do something that PhD's cannot.</p>

<p>I think the conflicting advice in this thread reflects the contrast between what medicine is today, and what the popular image of it has been. The image probably never was correct, but as medicine moves further from the practice of independent professionals and closer to being technicians, the contrast becomes sharper. </p>

<p>Medicine is declining as a career, and the current practice is greatly reduced in automony, importance, and psychological rewards (sense of accomplishment, ability to perform up to one's own standards...). On the other hand, it will only get worse. Independent experts running around trying to treat patients as best they can are difficult to control. The galloping costs of health care reflect this, and insurers, including the government, are determined to stamp them out. </p>

<p>Those who are content in the practice now are ok with being told how to practice, often by people who have no idea what they are talking about, and who don't care about patient outcomes. The notion that one can turn insurance problems over to the staff is dreaming. </p>

<p>The insurance companies set up their rules precisely to make them as demanding of physician time and attention as possible. This means that many legitimate bills are never paid, because the docs do not have time to devote to trying to collect. The insurers would love it if docs simply turned these over to staff- even fewer bills to pay.</p>

<p>Although medicine continues its decline, of course it is declining from a very high level. It can continue this drop for a long time before it is a worse option than many other careers. It is now similar to careers in business, law etc. It used to be better, in the future it will be worse. It will probably be a very long time, if ever, before it is a worse career than those usually open to college drop outs, let alone high school drop outs. </p>

<p>Are you likely to recover your investment and make a huge income? No. Some docs who are more business people than physicians will manage it, but this will be as rare as being an economics major and ending up a hedge fund manager.</p>

<p>Are you likely to love it so much you cannot imagine retiring? No. Those days are over.</p>

<p>Will you be able to care for patients as best you know how, and take pride in the quality of your work? Absolutely not. You will work for insurers, not patients, and their priorities are purely financial.</p>

<p>Will you have food on the table, a roof over your head, and a relatively steady job? Probably yes for a very long time. Look around. Things could be a lot worse.</p>

<p>Is this the best career you can find? Depends. What are your talents? If you are creative, brilliant, and ambitious- not the career for you. </p>

<p>If you are conventional, traditional, very comfortable with authority, and not too concerned about accomplishment and autonomy- could be fine.</p>

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<p>ok, there is a LOT of 'Wo is Me' from the docs and their families. I get that.</p>

<p>But, I gotta ask how many have ever been laid off? How many have ever needed unemployment? How many have ever been on food stamps? Who on this thread has ever known a doc who's kids would qualify for free tuition at Harvard?</p>

<p>Yeah, sure, running a business is tough. But what other career has, essentially, zero unemployment?</p>

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<p>This thread is just getting even better. Now more PhDs, MDs, and their close relatives are talking. The best advice a regular Joe can get.</p>

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<p>bluebayou,</p>

<p>As I said, "yes" to food on the table and relatively steady work. Laid off is not that unusual, hospitals close, practices fail, etc. But the docs can almost always find other work. Sometimes they have to relocate to do so. Even so they are hardly in the same fix as factory workers whose skills are obsolete and whose jobs will never come back. So foodstamps are unlikely during the careers of those who are in college now.</p>

<p>Free tuition at Harvard? Maybe. Can occur for those in low income fields of medicine with large families or other expenses. The norm would be qualifies for financial aid, but far from a free ride.</p>

<p>Careers with comparably low unemployment? Unemployment generally is low for people with professional degrees.</p>

<p>Overall, going forward, medicine will be nothing special, but a perfectly reasonable career for the not too ambitious, not too independent, and not excessively bright, solid student who can limit debt along the way.</p>

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<p>Here's mom again. I don't think my daughter reads this forum as much as I do but I know she wouldn't be surprised at this thread. I think the original question was " is med school worth it?" I think only our brilliant children can make that decision themselves with the information they have today. We physicians who trained in the 1980's are the parents of today's college students. When we were making decisions about career choices being a health care provider was very different. I always knew that I wanted to work in the health field, be a mom, wife etc. I had applied to nursing school but my mom, a nurse, wouldn't let me and made me reapply as a biology major. She was a wonderful nurse, mom, wife etc. and is still very wise and caring. Well she felt nurses were underpaid, overworked and that I could be a doctor and still help people but have much more. Well, funny how things worked out. I am working my ass off! chose the toughest field (Ob/Gyn), am "underpaid, overworked"! So I could've gone to nursing school, still been a mom, wife, a health care worker, but had more flexibility in my time, made a good salary, good benefits, good pension, no debt from medical school, job security, etc. Now I am a physician, am proud to have done and accomplished so much. I used to make a great salary, was able to pay back my loans easily and had a lot of job satisfaction. Because being a physician in the 21st century has drastically changed I don't know what to tell your children. You've seen on this board that doctors salaries are about 150 - 200K per year, for most primary and some specialty practices which I think is very accurate. But put that next to Nurses who make 50K to 100K per year, Physician Assistants (80-180K per year) and the plumber next door to me that makes 400K per year and the financial analyst neighbor who makes 1million$ per year, the lawyer who makes 500+ per year, etc. Of all those people,who invested the most money and time in their education no one will argue that it is the doctor. Now everyone is deserving to be reimbursed for their service but becoming a doctor nowadays doesn't make financial sense. It is very scary because those of you who don't want doctors to complain about "only" making 200,000 have to realize our salaries go down every year and we are scared because we know it has not "bottomed out" yet. Now I can't tell your child, "don't be a doctor", just "know what you are getting yourself into". Physicians who come out of residency today are on average 30 years old, now 200,000+ in debt (just med school debt, doesn't include college debt) and 8 years behind in earning income in the average work force. Someone who has a job, college grad here in NY makes on average 60,000 in some field, much more in the financial sector. While they started work at 21 years of age, they have make already 600,000$, hopefully saved money to buy a house, make some smart investments, etc. As a young physician, with 200,000$ in debt, your loan payments will be about 1500$ a mos (depending on how you finance it, interest that compounded,etc) and your average starting salary will be around 100,000$ per year. Your take home pay will be about 55,000 per year and after paying that loan, your car, rent, bills etc, you will not have any savings. That's how it is here in NY. So what we've seen here is an exodus of young doctors who see that a decent home in our area on a modest piece of property, costs about 900,000$ they realize that they cannot stay here. Most male doctors have left and chose to practice in more affordable areas where a salary of 200,000 will go much further. Which is a great option for some, for others it is depressing because they want to live in a city suburb or don't want to leave their family. For women, it seems, being a physician has become "that second income". For those of us in our 40's and 50's who don't want to move and lose our homes, we are working harder, seeing many more patients, cutting our expenses at home and at work just to make ends meet. We are not able to save for our retirement. So please try to understand that being a doctor is very different now. It is a big investment of money and time with no financial pay back. I still feel there is some payback in personal satisfaction, respect and doing something you are passionate about. But unfortunately, it doesn't pay the bills. I do hope it gets better again, because we need good doctors, good people in research, who are bright and passionate. but our country has put little value in medicine and science. It's a shame. Good luck on guiding your children. We don't have a crystal ball. If medical school didn't cost anything than maybe the time investment would be worth it to do something you love. It's just the med school debt that is very scary when we have no idea where medicine will go in the next 10 yrs. My sentiment is the same for PhD scientists because the future of our country depends on science and technology research. Sorry, I hope this wasn't too long but my intent was not to complain but to help your child make a decision on a career path that is right for him. I have so much respect for our kids and how hard they work. I want them to be rewarded with a wonderful future!</p>

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<p>Do we expect the average plumber to make 400K, average financial analyst to make 1M+, average lawyer to make 500K+. And some how a doctor making 100K will have a take home pay of 55K, but an average college grad making 60K will have a take home pay of 60K (60K x 10 = 600K).</p>

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<p>Come'on folks (not just you two). Where would you have them go? The star student who lives science loves research and discovery. Gets excited when HER (independent) project leads to a new consideration they hadn't thought of before, and sets them off in a new uncharted direction. Genuinely wants to serve her fellow man. And - and here is the hard part - is VERY ambitious. Wants to be a mover and shaker/difference maker of the highest order. Where can that kid go except medicine/medical research (translational or otherwise)? Pharma? Government research? World health? Where is there?</p>

<p>I'm talking about a kid who has absolutely no interest in business, law, banking, investments, foreign affairs, government policy (except for science). None. Zippo . Nada. </p>

<p>Isn't an M.D. (or in my example a M.D./PhD.) still the best degree for a kid who wants to work on the cutting edge of science knowledge and wants to serve her species, make a nice living, and be respected for her contribution? </p>

<p>It would be nice if y'all wouldn't just paint this horrid picture and give zero alternatives. If Phds in science and medical doctors don't do what Phds and medical doctors do, what do they do? Sell Amway? eBay home based business? What suggestion can you make for this kid that is better than the one she has selected for herself? If you don't have an answer you should recognize that your posts aren't helping anybody decide anything. As always. JMO.</p>

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<p>I understand the point but those numbers are nowhere near accurate The average college grad does not make $60,000. The average plumber does not make 400,000 per year. The average lawyer makes slightly less than the average physician. The average med school debt is approx. 130k for public med schools and 150k for private med schools, not 200k. Yes, being a physician means delayed gratification. If you are loan-adverse and want to make good money straight out of college, then go for a financial analyst position or be an engineer. If you know you want to enter into primary care, there are programs that will pay your way through med school in exchange for a few years of service in the primary care fields.</p>

<p>The anecdotes and examples used in this thread are very very skewed. Discussion of physicians mainly centers around the fields that are screwed the most (primary care fields) and yet we have examples of the 400k plumber and 100k phD's working for pharma companies. Please. Most phD's get stuck working as post docs for $40,000 a year. With law, unless you graduate in the top 1/3 of your class at a Top 14 school, you're looking at a low end clerk govt position for $60,000/yr. Investment banking pays great but the hours are worse than a physician's and the field is hyper competitive, just as getting into derm would be. Nursing and PA might make the most financial/lifestyle sense but most premeds are Type A personalities that wouldn't go for those fields.</p>

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<p>purplegirl:</p>

<p>thanks for sharing. </p>

<p>But, please understand that the grass is never greener, it just appears that way. The attorney in your 'hood that brings in a 7 figure salary is a rare bird. The average attorney can be rather hungry; ditto the average $ of an investment advisor. The CPA who works for our audit firm is in his 60's (I'm guessing) and lucky to be making about that in salary, after being out of work for 6 months.</p>

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<p>
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But, I gotta ask how many have ever been laid off? How many have ever needed unemployment? How many have ever been on food stamps? Who on this thread has ever known a doc who's kids would qualify for free tuition at Harvard?

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Not so fast. I do know one who got laid off from Kaiser. I believe he eventually moved to a small town and examine dead corpses for a living, not sure what profession that is.</p>

<p>Also I believe doctors have to sign yearly contact with hospital, I don't think it's guaranteed employement.</p>

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<p>OP: Not surprisingly, there are now some second thoughts regarding the whole medical school thing. So my question is then what experiences does anyone else have on this forum with their children going to medical school? What about 10-15 years after med school... what were things like then? </p>

<p>Curmugeon asks:
What suggestion can you make for this kid that is better than the one she has selected for herself? If you don't have an answer you should recognize that your posts aren't helping anybody decide anything. As always. JMO</p>

<p>As a physician and mother of three physicians, and still the mother of a high school senior, my answer would be to do your research. There are still niches in medicine that are satisfying and rewarding. Part of the process should be learning what to eliminate and that would depend on personal circumstances. Because the life and career paths in different medical fields are so variable these early decisions can have life-time reprocussions. </p>

<p>For example, by the end of the third year of medical school students must make a decision regarding medical specialty. Within the following 12 to 24 months that can not be changed as government funding for residency training only allows one to train the the number of years of the original residency match program. In other words, at the end of your third year of medical school, the student has probably only had two months or experience with psychiatric patients. You apply for a psychiatry residency but a year later, with your newly minted MD degree, you develop a passion for dermatology or radiology. If you start the second year of post-MD work, the chances of ever training in another field are essentially zero because the funding will not be available for the years needed to complete the training program.</p>

<p>The discussion on the Student Doctor forum would interest you if only to provide further insight, esp. A</a> poll from an old timer -Why are young people still going into medicine? - Student Doctor Network Forums</p>

<p>mygyver22 sums of the experience of two specialties which correlates well with the experience of physicians on this thread.</p>

<p>The physicians who are responding on this forum are trying to provide insight into our lives so that your children can make the best career decisions for themselves.</p>

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<p>The physicians who are responding on this forum are trying to provide insight into our lives so that your children can make the best career decisions for themselves.</p>

<p>I want to believe that is true but without alternatives for those kids I described (and as I'm sure you know, you listed none) it's just not very helpful. Sorry. It's analogous to diagnosing cancer and providing no treatment plan to offer the patient [edit: or maybe more apt - ripping the patient's preferred plan without providing an alternative of your own. Not that helpful. ].</p>

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<p>As an example: I am an attorney. It is my belief that the profession is not very pleasant. It's hard to be good at it. People don't respect us anymore (if they ever did). When kids ask me (or parents of kids ask me) what path to take if they are still committed to law I say "the traditional generalized Atticas Finch practice of law" is done. Big firm. Small firm, doesn't matter. Big town , little town. Finito. That by the time they are mid-practice the remainder of us dinosaurs will go the way of the IBM Selectric and White-out. Some places they are all gone now. Or driving a school bus to pay rent. Small cities have a few of us still. Small towns are our refuge for a few more years. Maybe long enough for me to survive my dotage. If you still want to be a lawyer after all that you have to combine something else with it- banking and law. Insurance/risk management and law, foreign language and law, trade and law, electrical engineering and law. I give alternatives. To say

[quote]
my answer would be to do your research. There are still niches in medicine that are satisfying and rewarding. Part of the process should be learning what to eliminate and that would depend on personal circumstances.

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is not helpful to me. It may be for somebody. Maybe I'm to dense to grasp the safety line you are throwing. What niches? How do they avoid the pitfalls that would keep them from their goals? </p>

<p>BTW I have none of those alternatives to traditional law practice. I have always said if I wasn't a traditional "lawyer" the only two jobs I could have would be vagabond and pirate. I guess I could combine those two.</p>

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<p>I know the average plumber doesn't make 400k, and I know that the average lawyer doesn't make more than a physician. Funny how nobody questioned the financial guy making a million dollars!! I can't imagine doing anything else but healthcare and for your children that are the same, great let them go to medical school. I was trying to give you the financial aspect of what your avg 30 yr just out of residency has to face because it is very important. I had 100,000 in loans 20 yrs ago but was able to pay it off easily in 5 years. But I've been working with Residents for over 20 yrs and I see what is going on. I don't know what Physician salaries will pay in 10 yrs, all I know is that my income is less than half of what it was 10 years ago yet I'm working harder. The business aspect of running a medical practice has become extremely difficult to add to it. We've only seen decline and no sign that it is going to get better. I still want to be a doctor as your child does but I don't know what our incomes will be in the future and what choices your child will have. Maybe med school will be funded and this will make a physician's 100,000+ salary more acceptable. The students I meet are over 200,000 in debt and almost none of them want anything to do with primary care (internal medicine, ob/gyn, pediatrics). Sad, as we need brilliant people in all areas but these specialties are not financially feasible for these kids. I don't have the answers. Just some insight.</p>

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<p>Curm:</p>

<p>My D has a job on-campus in a genetics research lab that's run by and staffed by MD/PHD people (several have both) doing full time research. There are also quite a few biotech companies in the area that have similar researchers I think. Maybe your D might be interested in one of these types of positions.</p>

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<p>
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Maybe med school will be funded and this will make a physician's 100,000+ salary more acceptable. The students I meet are over 200,000 in debt and almost none of them want anything to do with primary care (internal medicine, ob/gyn, pediatrics).

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Isn't basic supply and demand going to be a factor here? The med school/doctor path isn't exactly the easiest which will always limit the supply to some extent. As more people get discouraged from entering the field (if they listen to posters here) or as fewer enter certain specialties, wouldn't it force the remuneration to go up?</p>

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<p>"Isn't an M.D. (or in my example a M.D./PhD.) still the best degree for a kid who wants to work on the cutting edge of science knowledge and wants to serve her species, make a nice living, and be respected for her contribution? "</p>

<p>To curm, the answer is yes. She belongs in that field as we all do. It's just that the "make a nice living" and "be respected" part that is becoming extinct. I wish her well, she sounds great.</p>

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<p>uscsd<em>ucla</em>dad. Thanks for the suggestion. What is that life like? D's present lab is staffed by a PhD. and UG students but this summer that lab will team with one from St. Jude's that is staffed with some M.D./PhDs. and M.D.s (I think, anyway. Nobody gives me any details. :( ).</p>

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<p>Curm - Sorry, but I'm not close enough to it to know what the life is like. I know they're always concerned about grants so they have a certain overhead in obtaining those. But they're also working on potential cures for diseases though so I expect they'd have a great deal of satisfaction in some of those results. I've also noticed that a certain number of researchers seem to live in the La Jolla/Del Mar area which isn't the cheapest area of town. I imagine that some of them might get royalties from their research.</p>

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<p>Inventing the newest widget is almost as profitable as heart docs serving as a TV pitch man for the pill of week.</p>