<p>
[quote]
But they CAN get better.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Nope. They can't get any better. It is a downbound train.</p>
<p>YouTube</a> - Bruce Springsteen Downbound Train [Live]</p>
<p>Especially for the class of 2010. </p>
<p>*I got a job
down at the carwash
where all it ever
does is rain
and I feel like I'm a rider
on a downbound train. *</p>
<p><m+b, and="" norcalguy,="" ssshhhhhh!="" i'm="" working="" here.=""> ;)</m+b,></p>
<p>When a teacher tells what practicing medicine is really like, beware. DespseekPhd knows the problems of teaching, as a physician of 30 years I know what practicing medicine is like and have seen the changes over the decades. Insurance, the patient and physician are in a triangular relationship with two always pulling against the other. </p>
<p>If a day goes by without an insurance problem, it is exceedingly rare and if there are physicians who "let their staff handle all the problems" as DespseekPhd implies, they must have their practice on auto-pilot. The insurance problems change daily, the rules of the insurance companies change daily, and if you stick your head in the sand, you are probably writing off a lot of work. </p>
<p>By the way, very few residency training programs are three years, most are four, and surgical specialties are 5 to 7 years. Residents are hospital employees and as such do not have to deal the managed care, insurance companies are HMO's. The business aspect of their education begins when they apply for their first job after residency. </p>
<p>Also residents are supposed to only work 80 hours per week. My two daughters are currently residents is top academic programs. My daughter's fiance, a first year orthopedic resident worked 96 hours last week. Their program makes them lie about their hours so they don't loose their accredidation.(So much for following the rules.)</p>
<p>All we've gotten here is that medicine isn't as great today as it used to be. Fine. But, most of us don't have time machines. So, if you're going to tell someone not to enter medicine, you have to suggest another career path that would be great for a premed. You are still well paid in medicine. You are still respected. You still have relative job security. You still get to interact with and help people. Your message can be one of the two:</p>
<p>a) Medicine isn't as great as when I first got out of med school but I can't imagine myself doing anything else.</p>
<p>b) Don't enter medicine!</p>
<p>If it's b), what would you suggest for someone who has the typical premed features (interest in science, loves working with people, wants a respectable, well-paying job)? There are no perfect professions out there. From reading the posts in the premed forum, I don't think anyone expects medicine to be perfect.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Well, if you were asking me (and I'm sure you were) I'd say get a crap "advanced" degree in "nutritionology" from some mill and go on TV as a holistic healer natural shaman and sell a book of bizzarro "cures" of all the really bad stuff. With your UG bio degree you can sprinkle in words like "mitosis" and "thrombosis" and several other "osises". "Hey, Hey. FDA. Bet you thought I'd go away. Boo-yah."</p>
<p>^^ HaHa - Curm!</p>
<p>To the OP's question - everything's relative. There are challenges in everything and there seems to be plenty here stating the challenges in the doctoring profession. But a key question is, if you were to do it over again, would you not go into the profession, or do the benefits (both tangible and intangible) outweigh the negatives even though there are some negatives? I know the answer was 'yes' for at least one poster's H but what about the rest of the docs here?</p>
<p>Thank you to ALL who posted in this thread. I now know that being a doctor is not that great. BUT, I read somewhere that most lawyers dont like their jobs either. So, what do we adults suggest high school kids to consider? Perhaps we should rank careers based on the satisfaction rate from within and the recommendation rate from outside. I guess being a doctor might be ranked high still. Maybe someone knows a better profession. Please share.</p>
<p>Perhaps (and I know this is a CRAZY thought!), we could let college-aged students figure out through coursework and experiences what they really want to do with their lives. They can even talk to people in the profession (in person, not on an anonymous forum) so they can get a good handle on what the benefits and pitfalls might be. Then we can let them do it. Wait, isn't that what we've been doing for years?</p>
<p>Of course, I can't possibly know anything about anything that doesn't relate to teaching, though. I lack eyes, ears, a brain, natural curiosity, and the ability to read.</p>
<p>/end sarcasm</p>
<p>Seriously, I can't imagine why any adult would discourage a high school student from any legitimate career path, particularly a career path that requires college. Four years of college is plenty of time for the student to discover for themselves what is good for them. If a student really has no idea what general path interests them (and this is rare), there's nothing wrong with asking questions about interests, classes they've enjoyed, hobbies, etc. to guide them a bit. If a student wants to know about a particular profession, guide them to ask people in the profession (with the caveat that one person's experience is not everyone's experience, and they should seek widely differing samples to get a good viewpoint). But telling a student, "Oh, no, don't become a doctor/lawyer/Indian chief - it's terrible! Everyone's unhappy!" is patronizing, egocentric, and irresponsible.</p>
<p>EDIT: I realized my sarcasm seems aimed at you, jnatu, and it's really not. I apologize if I gave the wrong idea.</p>
<p>
[quote]
I personally want to encourage all of your children to read this well-reasoned respectful thread, especially if they were foolishly thinking of applying to med school or M.D./PhD programs and are sophomores (or anyone planning to graduate in 2010 and apply to med school in 2009). Statistics show that those students will be least likely to have happy, fulfilling careers as physicians or physician scientists. I think it would be a community service to link this thread to any site pre-med sophomores may visit. A tip of the hat to all who have shared.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>and</p>
<p>
[quote]
If a student wants to know about a particular profession, guide them to ask people in the profession (with the caveat that one person's experience is not everyone's experience, and they should seek widely differing samples to get a good viewpoint). But telling a student, "Oh, no, don't become a doctor/lawyer/Indian chief - it's terrible! Everyone's unhappy!" is patronizing, egocentric, and irresponsible.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>So we've got some folks saying this is a fantastic thread and a public service that all potential pre-med students should read and others saying some of the comments are "patronizing, egocentric, and irresponsible". This is clearly a hot topic that's struck a nerve with some. </p>
<p>I would just say I've seen some of the comments made on the pre-med forums here and many of those folks just don't have a clue (e.g. folks seemingly fantasizing about how much money they'll make)... so the comments made in this thread should certainly be on the assigned reading list.</p>
<p>Very well said, DespSeekPhd. If you are a teacher, I think you are a good one. If you are working on your PhD, then good luck and get one, you'll be an even better teacher.</p>
<p>For the last time, cur was being sarcastic with that comment. Her daughter is premed and, last I heard, she supports her daughter's choice.</p>
<p>And my question still hasn't been answered: Those of you saying you wouldn't go into medicine if you could do it over again, what job would you rather be doing?</p>
<p>Thanks, jnatu! I tend to think that adults don't give young people the credit they deserve. I hate being micromanaged, so I certainly wouldn't want to do it to anyone else!</p>
<p>I used to be a teacher, but I left because I got fed up with the politics and adminstration. Despite the fact that I had several irritating to all-out bad experiences, I still can't imagine telling someone not to be a teacher. I'm in grad school now, and I'm also a parent.</p>
<p>She ?!!!? Her?!!? Good God, man. I'm a bozo. My kid is a bozoette. Sheesh. I need to type in a more manly voice. Trucks and chainsaws. 220 volt plugs. Guns and ammo. Booby bars.</p>
<p>"As someone pointed out a few posts ago, this thread was started to give advice to high school seniors and college students thinking about medicine as a career. As such, the opinions and attitudes of younger doctors and residents are probably more applicable than that of a 70 year old Ob/Gyn"</p>
<p>How about the attitudes of a forty-something physician who has been practicing medicine for over 20 years, runs a successful multi-physician group practice but still would not want to inflict the practice of medicine upon his children ?
(I started my residency at 23; medicine is an undergrad course in Australia and the UK. )</p>
<p>In any case, I would not blithely dismiss the advice from any 70 year old physicians who might be lurking. Wisdom does sometimes come with age.</p>
<p>I don't think the message here is "don't go into medicine". I think the message is, don't go into medicine with a 1960's view of what the medical profession and the actual practice of medicine is like. I have many physicians in my family, both the old-timers and the newbies, and their experiences are so different it's as if they aren't speaking the same language. The Old-timers knew very little about running a business and managing cash flow, capital expenses, hiring and firing and developing employees, how the malpractice business/plaintiffs bar operates, etc. and frankly, it didn't matter much. Some of them did extremely well financially, others did less well, but they all focused their lives on people and disease and advances in science and had pretty satisfying careers.</p>
<p>The Newbies are finding that managing a business is the heart and soul of what they do. Buy or lease a piece of equipment? How to amortize it and how to depreciate? Invest in more and better staff (i.e. PA's and Nurse Practicioners so you can see more patients) or rely on admin staff so as not to have to balloon the number of patients you need to treat just to cover your payroll every week, etc. These are not trivial decisions for young doctors-- these are the decisions that dictate whether they can pay off their loans or live like grad students for yet another decade. Keep up with advances in their field? They barely have time to read a couple of journals every month, let alone attend the half dozen conferences per year they ought to.</p>
<p>Desp, I appreciate your point of view but I think you are describing a type of medicine which was once common here but is now quite rare. Your typical pediatrician in a group practice of 4-5 physicians works longer hours for much less revenue with signficantly fewer medical issues to grapple with, but significantly more "corporate' issues on his/her plate. A kid now contemplating a medical career should understand that reality- Insurance is reality, not a trivial, "my staff handles that" issue. The "lease or buy" decisions on equipment, office space, lab capacity, even how much basic service to outsource..... these are not minor decisions which have a marginal impact-- these are the make or breaks which can determine if your salary will be enough to support your family and pay off your loans.</p>
<p>I think the analogy to a teaching career is weak. Teachers don't get sued for bad outcomes. Teacher's don't lose their licenses for helping a terminally ill student end their suffering. Teachers don't have every decision second guessed by some insurance company (maybe they should!) Teacher's don't have to mediate between family members who want hospice vs. those who advocate for aggressive treatment of a family member in pain who potentially could be cured.</p>
<p>TV glamorizes a medical career to the point that HS students have little idea of what the actual daily life is about. I just think that before a kid takes on the time, debt, commitment of a medical education, he/she should see what it's really like.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Now, all joking aside, this a critical point. Shadowing a physician and/or working in a hospital or clinic (or medical research lab if that is a possible career) is essential. I know my D has benefited greatly from her hospital volunteering , her summer of shadowing and working (unpaid but hands on) in a doctor's office (probably 300 hours with 3 different specialties - plastics, opthamology, and cardio), and her time spent with medical researchers at a research hospital. I am forever thankful to the physicians and their staffs for the opp's they gave her. She is moreso. </p>
<p>I can't imagine making such a decision without some exposure to the realities of the medical practice and I echo blossom's post. It ain't like TV.</p>
<p>p.s. My D might have overdone it, but ..... For all of y'all without great access some is better than none. Get hopping. ;)</p>
<p>Geez, Cur, sorry about my little rant. It all could've been avoided if you would preface every post with a position paper....:)</p>
<p>I just get a little weird when I hear this line, as I've sure you have: "Your D wants to go to med school? Does she realize how hard it is?! OMG, the whole system is being revamped as we speak! Better she find another profession!"</p>
<p>That's when I tell them to mind their own @#$%-ing beeswax...</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Data sources for the statistics please....</p>
<p>Actually, blossom, I specified that my experience was with hospitalists or people who primarily practice in hospitals, and that private practice is certainly a somewhat different situation (although still not quite as doom and gloom as some posters make it put to be).</p>
<p>Hospitalists do not have to run a business and manage staff in the same way.</p>
<p>
[quote]
I think the analogy to a teaching career is weak. Teachers don't get sued for bad outcomes. Teacher's don't lose their licenses for helping a terminally ill student end their suffering. Teachers don't have every decision second guessed by some insurance company (maybe they should!) Teacher's don't have to mediate between family members who want hospice vs. those who advocate for aggressive treatment of a family member in pain who potentially could be cured.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>True. Teachers, however, have been sued for bad outcomes. They have also been fired, which often precludes them from getting another decent job because of poor references. They do not lose their licenses easily, but they can be fired for advising a student academically in a way that their parents don't like. They can also be fired for being a little too honest with grades. Again, this makes it difficult to impossible to be hired elsewhere.</p>
<p>Teachers have every decision second-guessed by administration. Many teachers must provide lesson plans to administration, and some are still laboring under scripted lessons.</p>
<p>Teachers have to mediate between parents and students on issues of college, career choices, and grades, some of which can get ugly when it also involves divorce or, worse, abuse. Teachers dealing with abused or neglected children is not a rare occurrence, unfortunately.</p>
<p>Come to think of it, my analogy was excellent. The difference is that doctors still get more respect and compensation. Teachers do not deal with immediate life-and-death situations. I'm not sure that dealing with abuse, rape, and teenaged pregnancy is a whole lot better, especially without the resources and training.</p>
<p>If my family had to do it all over again, we would most definitely have preferred having pursued MDs instead of PhD.</p>
<p>Although we are in Pharmaceutical R&D, from my own experience, no other degree carries the gravitas of an MD. </p>
<p>In my opinion, MDs RULE......either in the Clinic, or NIH, or at the FDA. Why do I say that? Primarily because even at NIH, the research (despite its preclinical nature/animal models of disease) is ultimately aimed at targeting a disease or a physiological disruption in humans. So, translational MDs (MD/PhDs) rule at NIH as well as in Industry. </p>
<p>There is no utopia for anyone, of course. Everyone has their own set of positives and negatives to deal with. Nevertheless, if you want to be a Leader in your career, MD is the way to go. </p>
<p>Now, if only my DS listened to his mom, he would be seeking an MD/PhD..... Alas, with 2 researchers at home, he is sort of saturated with research'inglish...he tells me his interests are only in the clinical area. He is not interested in research whatsoever!
Oww! You don't know what that statement does to my researcher heart an soul.</p>