lookingforward has posted multiple times on multiple threads that lower SES applicants can put in amazing applications, and that it is an assumption to think otherwise.
I am happy to grant that the some lower SES applicants may have excellent applications, perhaps due in part to having a good mentor, or an involved community, or a relative who can help out, or a pastor, or Scout leader, or other adult.
However, it is clearly the case that a number of the lower SES applicants need compensating consideration in connection with their applications. Otherwise, Harvard would not offer the special consideration to members of this group. This is not an assumption. Harvard has said so.
Apparently an interested adult is able to open an applicant’s eyes (lower SES or not)just far enough that the applicant can “get it” [whatever “it” is] and understand what to show in the application without being told explicitly. Perhaps those interested adults could share this information more broadly, rather than alluding to some mysterious “it.”
I am suggesting that unless they’re much better detectives than we suspect and have a lot more time per app than has been rumored, the AOs are making guesses.
Again, using my son as an example - he went to a public magnet school, works 10-20 hours a week, has an Asian last name (we are not Asian), and probably listed my and his father’s occupation as “business owner”; both of us have bachelor’s degrees but one from a very obscure, no prestige school in a foreign country. We live in SW Florida where houses right on the water can be priced in the millions and within less than 1/4 mile away are mid priced housing and trailer parks, so zip code means nothing. We live down a curved driveway at the end of a road, so a quick look at google street view shows foliage and nothing of our house. Added to all this is the fact that the school GC knew little about my son and from his comments in our one and only group meeting, assumed we needed extensive scholarship.
Sure, with some detective work an AO could figure some things out but if they’re just going by what the app implies on its face, you’d guess my son is the child of a low SES Asian immigrant family. None of those things are true.
The previously linked Avery study found that 17% of “high achievers” (as defined by having high stats) were in the bottom quartile income. 17% is less than the 25% that would occur in a random distribution, but that’s still a lot of “high achievers” who have low incomes. Yet few of this group applied to any selective colleges. The author writes,
Specifically 40% of low income “high achiever”'s most selective college application was to a college that had open admissions, such as community colleges. The portion who applied to a college that had a higher average SAT than their own was too miniscule for me to estimate from the graphs. In contrast, high income high achiever’s usually applied to at least one college with similar or higher SAT than their own. The few low income high achievers that did apply to highly selective colleges often used an application strategy that the author described as “odd” and is likely to result in not attending a highly selective college. She gave the example,
There a variety of reasons why few low income high achieving students apply to highly selective colleges. One factor is not seeing others in the community attend such colleges including their parents, friends at school, and so in. High schools also tend to not be on the radar of recruiters for highly selective colleges. They often don’t see reps at college fairs and such. Another key factor is not making it clear that the colleges are affordable. If Harvard has a $70k sticker price, it’s not obvious to the layperson that the college is affordable for a low income family. It’s also relevant to discuss why a low income student should want to attend HYP… or other prestigious colleges, rather than a local public. In the overwhelming majority of careers, the benefits are likely to be fairly small. Investment banking on wall street type positions are an exception.
When Harvard does get one of the few high achieving low income applicants, they appear to often give a boost with the “disadvantaged” indicator. This is not a huge boost on the level of legacy or black. The regression coefficients suggest it is not even enough of a boost to cancel out the penalty for not being able to apply early due to FA considerations.
Quant- one day you will look back on your eternal quest to discover “it” with great nostalgia (and perhaps, regret).
The “it” will change depending on the actual kid (so it’s not a formula which can be applied across the broad swath of HS students, each clamoring for “it”.) The kid from the housing project in Brooklyn who was homeless for three years, who takes a bus and then two trains to get to Bronx HS of Science (a test-in public HS) has a different “it” than a kid from a rural town in Minnesota who raises prize winning chickens for the 4-H. The former may have personal/family challenges but is surrounded by smart and talented peers, students and guidance counselors. The latter may go to an online HS and if he speaks Japanese it’s because he taught himself.
Neither of them need to emulate the “I play tennis and volunteer by handing out sandwiches to the homeless” which comprises so many affluent suburban kids applications. They can authentically describe their own upbringings and challenges and their own initiative and energy and yes- passions- which have brought them to where they are. They could be diamonds in the rough, or the people who know them might describe them as “destined for greatness since age 6”. But it doesn’t matter. They can be who they are, and if Columbia rejects them, they can get a fine education at Fordham or U Minnesota or Bowdoin or Rhodes or Wake Forest or JHU or Dartmouth.
Am I the only one who has a burning curiosity to be in the room when these decisions are made? Its not because I want any advantage for my daughter. She isn’t applying there. I am just dying to see the apps from these amazing kids. I’m dying to here the conversation about who shows “it” and who doesn’t. I would pay a lot to be a fly on the wall!
Milee. I still think you’re assuming.
Most of that 2nd paragraph. That’s not “what we look for.”
Blossom, I say the “it” remains the same but a kid can accomplish it in many ways. And instead of passion (which in itself is pretty meaningless without action,) I’d say drives. Of course, they need to be the right sort for that tier and shown in the right ways, the right efforts and directions. Not just telling.
A kid can by ave a passion for his you tube page and that’s not it.
Anyone can go back over that H WWLF and see what picture comes to mind.
Applicants who are not connected can only make assumptions based on what the colleges themselves are publishing and showing.
If the colleges would like to dispel many of the apparent inconsistencies, they are welcome to disclose more information. Based on the Harvard lawsuit, it appears most of the top selectives purposefully keep this information secret because it shows them in an unflattering light.
If colleges want to stop people speculating and pointing out inconsistencies, the solution is to release more information and own up to their practices, not ask that people not look too closely at what’s happening behind the curtain.
Mathematically it is not a big tip at all – just a slight boost. Based on the bar chart that was linked to upthread, it is enough to compensate for but not surpass the advantages the high SES students have.
Your assuming that “special consideration” means that someone who is otherwise unqualified gets in.
But I think that it’s more like: in a field that is full of students with stratospheric tests scores, course schedules loaded with AP’s, and amazing EC’s… tagging a file as “disadvantage” is simply a way of avoiding a situation where students who lack the opportunity to acquire these extraordinary credentials would be disregarded entirely. But these low SES kids who get into Harvard are pretty amazing in their own right.
More assumptions? Unflattering light? What do you think they mean by, "“How open are you to new ideas and people?” Or the initiative question? Can you show those and/or other qualities?
But no. This conversation keeps coming back to wealthy, how they figure disadvantaged, how they aren’t making things crystal clear to these kids who supposedly think they have what H wants… (Education isn’t always about ‘clear’ being hand delivered to a kid.) How they’re duping kids.
They do build the class they want and plenty of kids do get “it.” They have drives through hs, are activated, have some impact in ways that matter to the colleges. They aren’t limiting themselves because some forum said breadth is padding. Etc.
You’re calling inconsistencies based on elements that aren’t what truly advances a kid or not, to the final round. Eg, a kid needs to be open minded, have some initiative. And show it. Not get distracted.
The vast majority of well-qualified students who apply to Harvard get rejected.
3 The key to admission is to be different, and different in a way that coincides with something Harvard wants. So any student who thinks that there is some magic formula they can copy to get into Harvard has already going down the wrong path.
The key to getting to that point of being different in a way that counts is to not care about getting into Harvard. To make every choice in high school with the goal of maximizing the opportunities that are available, in a way that fits with whatever the student's interests and inclinations are... and then after all is said and done, to develop a college list based on "what college best serves the individual interests of this student?" and "what colleges might most appreciate and want this student".... NOT on "how can I get into school X".
Anyone who can read that very long list of suggestions on the Harvard website and still not have an idea as to how to frame their essay, probably doesn't have what it takes to succeed in Harvard in any event. So if a student's reaction to reading that list is to feel put off... then that student probably shouldn't waste their time applying.
You seem to be seeking some sort of formula that any student can follow to get into Harvard-- without understanding that that with the limited exceptions of recruited athletes and daughters of sitting Presidents… no student can expect to be admitted. Some will be … but none are entitled.
This thread didn’t start as a question about how to get into Harvard, but about how to “show” in a college essay. These are very different questions. It is possible that all the kids who are Harvard material are gifted writers who already know how to portray themselves in writing. But again, this thread is NOT just about getting into Harvard. @lookingforward has said many times that part of this application process is about helping our kids feel that regardless of outcome, they gave it their best shot. I think the essay is a stumbling block for lots of kids.
I asked upthread if those with some knowledge could link to some essays they thought worked. If you google “essays that worked” hundreds come up. In my uninformed opinion, most of them are awful, but many of the essays from Johns Hopkins are truly beautiful. Many of them don’t talk about world changing accomplishments, but about relatable and sometimes small things that somehow manage to bring out a student’s personality. Reading them, I find that not only do I feel I know those kids, but I would like to spend time with them.
Any thoughts from others about those or other essays?
“You seem to be seeking some sort of formula that any student can follow to get into Harvard”
Nope. Not at all. Your suggestions #1-4 were exactly what my son did and he was very successful with that approach; it’s what I have recommended to others on this forum.
The thread is about showing not telling and many of my posts are simply pointing out how colossally hypocritical it is of top selective schools to tell students something then show something else; Harvard was an easy example because there is data now available due to the lawsuit. But Harvard isn’t the problem or the only one that does that.
My recommendation to students is to just be aware of the clues that show how the system is truly working; not what the colleges tell, what they are showing. Just like they are asking you to do. Be smart and don’t buy into the vague phrasing. Look at what the college are actually doing to help you craft your strategy.
Gads, GJ, we’ll likely go in circles about essays, too. In fact, we did at the beginning of this thread.
But I agree most examples are awful.
All through this thread, I kept hoping someone would bring up WWLF from other colleges, see how they present. But it really got stuck on Harvard and what seems to be to be a huge pot of resentment against them. And imo, a certainty they’re just awful.
Hypocritical? They make the choices they make, at final table. First- and never forget it- you have to make it to that stage. Aren’t folks curous to try to figure out what that is, what to show, when structuring the app? Not just superficials or guessing, based on the final make up of the matriculated class, but the trail of breadcrumbs? Because it IS a skill they like when a kid can explore further.
Data10 and Calmom have explined several times that the pool of lower SES applicants is proportionately lower. But nooo. Some just know the college only wants rich kids.
Milee, you doubt they want open minded kids with initiative? Kids who stretch, make great classmates and roommates? You think they’re lying?
If an applicant is interested in writing an essay that “shows” well enough to get into my large public research university, assuming that the applicant’s GPA and standardized test scores are mid-pack-ish (in the 25%ile to 75%ile range) and that the letters from the teachers portray a reasonably decent student, in order to be admitted the student basically needs to come across as a normal, more-or-less likable human being in the essay. That is not actually hard, and requires no great skill at story-telling and no exceptional accomplishments to be humble about.
“Show, not tell” is an exhortation for the colleges where the essay and personal factors really matter.
I’d buy blossom’s statement in #243 about the “it” being different for different students, but lookingforward has always written about whether an applicant “gets it,” not whether an applicant “gets one of the its.” I keep hoping that lookingforward will some day post a little more to clarify the “it” or “its.” Call me quixotic. (I think of it as a potential public service )
@quantmech It isn’t either Harvard or “essay doesn’t matter.” I know several students who are desperately hoping for schools like Brandeis, Skidmore, Rochester. Those types of schools are also getting far more competitive and do consider the essay. There is a Lehigh thread from the last cycle full of high stat kids who didn’t get into schools at that level. Those kids also need to know that they did all they could.
"Milee, you doubt they want open minded kids with initiative? Kids who stretch, make great classmates and roommates? You think they’re lying? "
Yes, I think they are lying about certain things. And I think it’s in their best interest to cultivate mystery because if they are deliberately vague then any possible outcome can be explained as fitting what they said.
And they are looking for open minded kids with initiative, who “stretch”, who they want to hang out with… yes. And also that those things are not the whole story. At least that’s what the numbers show.
Imo, it’s not different for different students. Eg, using the initiative bullet, it’s still initiative. But different kids can show it using different examples, depending on their context. It still needs to be a valid example for their target colleges. That’s not founding the pie club (or a lot of other “founding” activities.) Sometimes, it’s as simple as how a kid activates, gets out there and does what matters.
Milee, have you ever tried to consider it all without giving so much importance to who matriculates? We always say, don’t mix up causation and correlation.
Please folks, a lot of CC thinks getting admitted is very simple: get good stats, have rigor, have some titles (any titles,) write some essay that shouts “you,” get two LoRs, submit the app. But not all kids present well. This is not some theoretical “be qualified” and that’s enough. It’s a fierce competition. You have to do your own best, use some savvy, not just throw darts. Not unlike many competitions.
And milee, any kid is free to skip the bullets. Eg, not show initiative or any of the other traits or stretch in his desired arena or get along with peers or whatever. Free to do that. But it’s the college that does the choosing and the risk is high. Assume they’re lying, at your own risk.
“Milee, have you ever tried to consider it all without giving so much importance to who matriculates? We always say, don’t mix up causation and correlation.”
Ignoring who the college actually picks - who matriculates - would be silly. As you always say, the colleges pick who they want. Looking at who they choose gives some very important clues as to what they value, what they want, what they select. As we agree - it’s not a crapshoot. The colleges are picking certain people for certain things and it’s reasonable to look at the data to get insight on what they do, not just what they say. All gets back to show not tell. The data is the showing and examining the data is part of being savvy.
Matriculating is not the same as being offered admission. It means you make the formal choice/commitment to enroll there, send in you documents and deposit.
