What happens to B minus students at selective colleges?

Parents Forum
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<p>Any statistics for students who have a B minus average--who happen to get accepted to a selective LAC school or Ivy? How do they fare?</p>

<p>I think that adolescents are malleable. If you are lucky like most who post on this board who have exceptional kids who do and did everything right...who listened to parental suggestion and fared well...you are lucky.</p>

<p>I look at my adolescent who is a great kid...but who had to figure out everything on his/her way...who did not want any parental help ...ever....for any project, suggestion, or input...who always manages to have a B minus average and similiar SAT/ACT scores (did not want tutoring or prep course).</p>

<p>Doesn't smoke, drink, cheat or brown nose his/her way in high school. Who chooses activities because he/she loves it.</p>

<p>Works hard on subjects and projects he/she loves...and not hard on other subjects and gets C's and B's.</p>

<p>I think the my child is finally learning the game of life...that parents can be helpful, etc, etc. But it seems too late (now a junior).</p>

<p>If my kid luck's out on getting into a selective school...how do they do?</p>

<p>I feel so sorry for him/her because of the angst of adolescent development that kept him/her from getting extra help. My kid always did everything on his/her own...had true ownership of his/her work (which I always thought was totally crazy...,knowing that other parents chimed in for the work and helped to polish essays, assignments, and projects.</p>

<p>It started in 1st grade with a project about the summer reading list...my kid had a kids project completed...no bells and whistles, no glitter...but even then he/she wanted no help. All the kids who had the stellar, Broadway project got A's, my kid got a C (even in first grade!!) I remember seeing the projects and knew that the others were not really done by the kids.</p>

<p>I was a science fair judge for the 6th grade class(not for my kids year)...and remember poignantly asking kids about the project...those with the stellar, glittering projectsknew so little about them (when their parents weren't aroung...and without prompting often said their mom or dad did most of it.</p>

<p>Are there stats out there that define the characteristics of the kids who don't flourish in college? </p>

<p>It just seems weird that a B minus high school student (who is still maturing and developing) could not cut it at a selective school. Why don't selective schools give these kids a chance?</p>

<p>Your thoughts are welcomed.</p>

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<p>What do you have in mind when you say "selective" school? Eg, USN&WR calls them "most selective, more selective, selective, least selective"? Is this kid interested in a "most selective" LAC/Ivy? </p>

<p>My S is an excellent student, not so great SAT-type tester. He chose a school below the "most selective" level, an excellent school, and I feel it will be a great environment for him. He will be able to shine there. grandS is a B average (in easy hs) kid, with below average SATs and is going to a state U, which should be good for him. Friend's S is a B- student, somewht like you describe, with pretty decent SATs (1200+old) and did NOT get into ANY "more selective" schools (we're guessing due to the disparity betw. SAT and GPA, not a good combo). After licking wounds, his mom and I are thinking he's better off in a less selective: academics are not his strong suit. Better he be in a place where he can play to his strengths - he is a social leader, always the nexus of his peers' activities. This is a strength which will take him far in "real life", as the kids like to say. Why fight his natural strength by placing him in an environment which emphasizes the area he struggles in?</p>

<p>Just some thoughts. </p>

<p>I certainly agree that it is a shame when major life events are decided as though a kid is "fully formed" when they may be developing still. But they can thrive and develop in many environments, not just "selective" schools.</p>

3

<ol>
<li><p>The best predictor of college performance is high school gpas.</p></li>
<li><p>Selective colleges don't need to give chances to students who are weak applicants because the selective colleges have an abundance of outstanding applicants to choose from.</p></li>
</ol>

<p>If a B- student gets into an Ivy, which is rare, the student still has to prove that they can do the work as very few students flunk out of places like Ivies. At Ivies, usually 90% or more entering freshmen graduate from the Ivy.</p>

<p>If a B- student gets in who is, for instance, a concert musician, movie star or olympic athlete, they have managed to get a B- despite having a much harder schedule and more challenges than most applicants have.</p>

<p>The few B- students who get in due to their parents' celebrity or $ probably also can afford tutors and other help to graduate.</p>

4

<p>I am the parent of a kid who made lots of mistakes- and knew it ALL so he didn't need advice from his parents. He always did well academically-the problems were more behavior things. He's learned a lot of lessons, and has a good shot at some very selective schools (with help from his sport). But-if the best fit for him is a less selective school, then that is where he will go.<br>
There are lots of colleges who will give a B- student a chance. Your son will thrive at many schools. You will get great suggestions from some of the parent on this board. Why would you WANT your son in a highly selective school where the majority of the student body are ultra-high achievers? That would set him up for failure! It isn't a matter of "giving these kids a chance". It is a matter of the highly selective schools having far too many qualified applicants for each spot. It is also a matter of the proper fit for each student.
The fact that a school is less selective doesn't make it a "bad" school. The best school is the one which is the best fit for your child. This has nothing to do with selectivity.</p>

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<p>If the kid is getting B-minuses because he's bored and uninspired in high school, things can sometimes turn around completely in college -- but I can't tell from your post if that's what's going on here.</p>

6

<p>
[quote]
It just seems weird that a B minus high school student (who is still maturing and developing) could not cut it at a selective school. Why don't selective schools give these kids a chance?

[/quote]
</p>

<p>To echo what others are saying, wouldn't it seem weirder for them not to take an extremely qualified student in order to give another student a chance? I also don't think that it's helpful to make the leap to assuming that kids with better records had their work done for them . There are tons of students who legitimately excel, and I don't think it's really good for your S to make such an assumption.</p>

<p>There are plenty of selective but not highly selective schools where I student with a B- average will be accepted. (My S's best friend might have had a lower GPA than that, and he's at RIT). So i guess I also echo the question of what do you mean by selective?</p>

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<p>Adding my agreement with everyone else. There are over 3500 4 year colleges in this country. Most of them are places where a B- student can thrive and find his true passion and motivation. The key is finding the right school, and that probably isn't going to be an Ivy or even one of the more selective LAC's --- those schools expect students to be able to hit the ground running and there is very little of the type of encouragement that is needed to turn a B- student into a top student.</p>

<p>Since you asked about what happens to B- students --- most do very well if they end up in a school that fits their personalities and that encourages them to reach their full potential. Find the wrong match, however, and a B- student - or any student for that matter - could end up like this student:</p>

<p><a href="http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/showthread.php?t=26527&highlight=guilford%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/showthread.php?t=26527&highlight=guilford&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>My daughter is a solid B+ student with decent test scores. Yet, I am not and will not be pushing her towards any Ivy schools or any highly selective LAC's. To do so would, in my opinion, be a grave dis-service to her. She has NO chance of getting into schools at that level of selectivity and, even if she "lucked out" by some miracle and did slip in, that sort of highly intense academic environment would be a disaster for her. </p>

<p>We have found plenty of excellent LAC's that are selective but not highly selective schools that are places where both she and I believe she can receive an excellent education and reach her full potential. Please think seriously before pushing your son towards schools where he will have no chance of acceptance: there are too many other great schools out there that will welcome him with open arms and help him reach his full potential.</p>

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<p>carolyn's post planted the above thought in my mind, one that I do not think trivial.</p>

<p>If one is hoping (or hoping for one's S/D) to "luck into" a selective/Ivy acceptance, to me this means numerous applications and very likely numerous rejections. What is the effect of this process on such a kid?</p>

<p>All of us who have been through the envelope-opening experience know that rejection touches some kids lives very superficially and others quite deeply.</p>

<p>Hope OP will consider this side of the equation. Just my humble opinion.</p>

9

<p>"I think the my child is finally learning the game of life...that parents can be helpful, etc, etc. But it seems too late (now a junior)."</p>

<p>It seems that your point is that students who are top achievers are doing well because of their parents. While this may be true for some 4th, 5th, 6th graders, most of us parents couldn't help our Juniors and Seniors if we wanted to. My son has tons of graphs and charts on his walls, near his computer. What are they? I have no idea! I called his cell looking for him the other night and he answered and let me listen to the background noise because he couldn't talk to tell me where he was. he was in a class. Did I know he had signed up for night classes this Spring? Nope. Did I tell him to? Nope. I didn't even know it was an option. </p>

<p>If your D is getting Bs and Cs, it probably isn't because she isn't letting you help. You shouldn't need to help her at this stage of the game. </p>

<p>I hate to be cynical: but I doubt she'll get into an Ivy or top LAC with a B-/C average. You should focus your energy on what matters for her....finding a good fit. </p>

<p>I'm really confused by your post and hope you'll expand on it.</p>

10

<p>Fortunately this country has many quality schools for the B- student. As far as the most selective schools being picky about grades, I always told my boys that gpa is one of the few things colleges have to look at and compare to other kids. If the competition is A/A- students, then a B- student has to have something very compelling going on to compete with that. That's just the way it is. It is to their benefit to get good grades. Well they didn't listen to me much.</p>

<p>That said, I can tell you that my boys, one a B- student in high school and one a B student, are both in college. The B- student is now a C student in college--at a state school. The B student (who had a fair amount of C's sprinkled on his high school transcript) is doing pretty well at a selective school (UChicago) so far--A's and B's, but mostly A's--I'm keeping my fingers crossed that the trend continues!</p>

<p>So, what I have learned from this is that the B/B- student in high school sometimes does fine and sometimes not. I did feel a little better tonight, though, about my struggling C student. Father of a kid I know (who was an A student in high school) told me his son's gpa is 2.1 (engineering major at UCSD). He seemed optimistic, and it made me feel optimistic. </p>

<p>I'm looking at my A student, a girl, and knowing her personality, I don't think she'll thrive at a super selective competitive type of school. We'll consider one or two of those, if junior year next year goes well, but I'm already thinking she is probably better suited to one of the less selective but high quality LAC's. That's my thinking right now. Subject to change, of course. Anything having to do with a teenager is subject to change . . .</p>

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<p>I don't have any statistics to offer, just an opinion.</p>

<p>I knew plenty of people who were very good high school students (B+ and higher) who attended my quite academically demanding college. Some of them did great, but others of them had a tough time. I was near the top of my hs class, but had no cakewalk in college either. My daughter was a very good hs student and also is facing her challenges in an academically rigorous college.</p>

<p>If it was tough for these people, I have to think it could well be unbelievably stressful for someone who has not demonstrated outstanding academic skills to this point. It's a gamble that I would not take, personally.</p>

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<p>I'm not a parent and I don't mean to intrude, but I am a senior who had a B- average going into this year. (I have since raised my cummulative GPA to slightly above a B thanks to straight As first semester of senior year). While the school I will be going to certainly isn't an Ivy or what most here would consider an Ivy equivalent, it is ranked among the top 30 LACs in US News and I am very happy to be going there. I also received merit scholarships at two other LACs that are lower-ranked, but still places that I would have been happy to attend if the "top 30 LAC" hadn't ended up coming through for me.</p>

<p>In my case my grades were partially due to personal issues that were briefly addressed in the application. However, I also will admit to having suffered to the same problem described in the original post, which is not being willing to put forth as much effort when I don't care for the subject and/or teacher. This is a problem that I have made a conscious effort to address this year and last, and I think that was noted by adcoms. (In fact, I know it was, because of a note at the end of my acceptance letter.) I was also helped by a 1400+ SAT score, though I know most CC posters wouldn't be too impressed by it.</p>

<p>So, if the question is whether a B- student can get accepted to a moderately selective college, then based on my experiences I would say yes. If the question is getting into an ultra-selective school then probably no. Which is not a bad thing IMO. I can't speak for all B- students, but I personally couldn't imagine fitting in in a super-competitive environment anyway.</p>

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<p>There are such good points being made here. mstee, monydad and sra08 have all made points about fitting in, thriving and the stress of a super-competitive environment. </p>

<p>Even some kids (probably many) who DO have the stats to enter Ivies or top LACs should choose not to do so because thos schools don't offer the best environments for them. I like the idea of placing kids where they will thrive.....not just placing them into the most rigorous enviroment they can manage to squeeze/luck into. Let's leave wiggle room for their experiences outside of the classroom. Let's give them a little "play" for some mistakes.</p>

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<p>
[quote]
I like the idea of placing kids where they will thrive.....not just placing them into the most rigorous enviroment they can manage to squeeze/luck into. Let's leave wiggle room for their experiences outside of the classroom. Let's give them a little "play" for some mistakes.

[/quote]
momsdream, just follow my kid. That's where she'll be headed if we do this right..</p>

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<p>No, I don't consider it a matter of luck if my children take my advice (which they don't in all cases). I go looking for them to make sure they hear from me and gain the benefit of learning from my youthful mistakes. But, yes, if they have a project to do, they do their own work. For one thing, my oldest son is now beyond my level in his favorite subjects, so I can't help him do his homework or other learning projects. I can still help him learn a lot about subjects that I like better than he, but even those he has to learn by doing the work himself. (I am a homeschooling parent, so some of the "school' instruction comes direct from me. But my son also attends outside classes and does distance learning classes with other teachers.) I try to stay lucky by CHECKING on how my son is doing. Sometimes I don't check frequently enough, but these days I mostly know which subjects he is self-motivated in and which require a bit of nagging. </p>

<p>It may be that in the comparative freedom of a big state university your child's grade average will increase--that was my experience, after a high school career in which I was bored silly in school and didn't play the game to have a high grade average in high school. At State U I could choose courses to challenge myself and be busy LEARNING, not doing silly busywork. But "a B minus average and similiar SAT/ACT scores" is a different kind of kid from what I was at the same age--I had high test scores because I enjoyed reading and I enjoyed thinking about math. As others who have replied have said, there are hundreds of different colleges, and doubtless a few that admit a lot of young people like your child, but Ivy League admission for someone with middling grades AND middling test scores would be very surprising, as would admission at the most competitive national liberal arts colleges. Look for sure-bet colleges first with good programs, and see what they have to offer that is of interest to your child.</p>

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<p>Getting in . . . hmm, yup, there's the rub. I've got to tell you, things have probably changed some since I entered academia, but I imagine the consequences remain static.</p>

<p>I dropped out of highschool the first semester of my senior year--I wouldn't have graduated anyway; I probably didn't have enough credits. My report cards looked something like D C- A A C+ (overly kind German teacher) D-. So what was the problem? My life was pretty screwed up, but beyond that, I found interest in only a few of the subjects that were offered or the teachers who taught them. Basically, in what I now recognize as my embrionic malcontentedness and a general distaste for falseness, I just couldn't bring myself to pay lipservice to the kind of crap that was being foisted on me at the tender age of 17. </p>

<p>At 19 I entered a community college (didn't need a HS diploma) and spent a couple of years taking classes that I wanted to take, dropping the classes that I didn't like, finding classes that I initially didn't think I would like but came to love, and graduated with an AA degree that pretty much said I had completed all general requirements. I then entered a state school and completed my double degree--again, taking the classes I wanted to take, looking into this or that as I was so inclined, and graduated three years later with two majors and a renewed interest in the human race.</p>

<p>A couple of years later, armed with an imagination exercised by freedom and a general lack of respect for the institutionalized product of education--though with no lack of respect for a few excellent lessons from a very few excellent teachers--I applied to and was accepted at one of the most prestigious universities in the land-- ivyclad--where I worked moderately hard, but far less so than most of my fellows, who were for the most part quite wrapped up in the achievement game, having known little else for most of their lives. In fact, though I liked some of them a great deal--and some not at all--I found that they didn't quite know what to make of me, and I perceived also that their minds, while sharp and industrious, weren't very flexible--sort of like circus performers who couldn't really enjoy themselves because they weren't entirely convinced that they were just a part of the show. I felt sorry for them. Though they might have been well travelled, they hadn't seen very much; and I was amazed, when we spoke about art and literature and ideas, how little they had experienced. What they knew, they had gathered from books and lectures, or perhaps even worse, they had gleaned first-hand with a presence that was somehow pre-fashioned, or calculated, to perceive in just this way, so that life didn't really breath for them. This, of course, was my impression, and, to be fair, I must say that a part of this was formed in me through contact with the lives of those that many of them emulated, their professors.</p>

<p>Now, my daughter has just been admitted to the college that she really wants to attend, but she spent a good deal of her childhood--besides putting up with me--studying hard and practicing hard and achieving in various forms a certain amount of success. And I'm curious as to how she will fare at a college where at least by measure of test scores--though not gpa--she is somewhat outgunned. Well, school is what you make of it.</p>

17

<p>Curious to what the OP is talking about here: "B- average and similar SAT scores". . .what SAT score would be considered "similar" to a B-? Are we talking about 1150? 1250? 1000?</p>

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<p>"Now, my daughter has just been admitted to the college that she really wants to attend, but she spent a good deal of her childhood--besides putting up with me--studying hard and practicing hard and achieving in various forms a certain amount of success. And I'm curious as to how she will fare at a college where at least by measure of test scores--though not gpa--she is somewhat outgunned. "</p>

<p>The best predictor of college performance anywhere is high school gpa. Your daughter should do fine.</p>

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<p>In my experience, the only B- with commensurate SAT score students at the most selective schools are athletes or perhaps others that the school would like to have enrolled. In most cases, a B- student would be an unlikely candidate for enrollment without a more than special hook at these types of schools. Just curious...is this student interested in these selective schools? There are many many fine colleges and universities where this student would be accepted and find very good academic challenges as well. The implication here is that only the selective schools can provide a challenging and excellent education and that simply is not true. Also, I would urge you to read the thread "picking up the pieces" about a student with good stats who did not get accepted anywhere. It would be very wise for this B- student to apply to a good variety of schools including match and safety schools which he would happily attend. If there is a dream school out there...go for it, you can't get accepted if you don't apply. But make balanced choices in your other applications to avoid disappointment in the end.</p>

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<p>I have no idea what commensurate would be, but two anecdotal bits:</p>

<p>gS 3.0 (=B) average at "nothing-special" hs. SAT 970.
Friend 2.8 (=B-) average at Jesuit, not particularly strong academic, hs. SAT 1200+.</p>

<p>gS got into a "selective" state U which Friend did not get into. Who can be sure why? But GPA stronger than SAT seems more desirable than the reverse. Also could be essays, etc.</p>

<p>Would really love to hear more from OP about situation and thoughts on the many ideas posted here.</p>

<p>momsdream: check the Writing Awards thread. Like curmudgeon, I quoted your fit/thrive thought and nominated it for a Coward.</p>