This talk of “look to the…” was Exactly what we got 4 years ago as at UIUC. Probably one of the main reasons we dropped it from the list…
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Did this audience include those who got into DGS / pre-engineering (as opposed to direct admission to an engineering major) and therefore face a weed-out process that can be difficult for popular engineering majors?
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This was an engineering open house day. It was the only engineering program that we visited that did this.
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It’s best to use NPCs rather than make assumptions. State schools are often lower cost if in-state, but there are many exceptions. There may be various non-publics that are lower net cost options after FA, merit scholarships, and various other factors.
Engineering majors from state schools also don’t generally don’t command a large premium salary above engineers at privates that are at least okay in engineering. For example, in another thread I listed the median first year salary by major and college type, as listed in the CollegeScorecard database. This database uses tax reported earnings among persons that were in the federal FA database. A summary is below for Mech Eng and Engineering overall (all majors with the word “engineering” in title). I also added Purdue and Michigan as a reference since they have been discussed and have a good sized sample. Note that I used the sample as listed in 2019. The current totals are slightly higher for all schools.
While this database and methodology have various flaws, the point is it does not suggest a premium salary for large publics, or for Michigan + Purdue in particular. Instead median earnings for publics, privates, Michigan, Purdue, and Ivies all seem reasonably similar to one another. There is a loose correlation with selectivity, which probably has more to do with the characteristics of the individual student than the college attend. For example, better students may be more likely to ace interviews and have more quality job offers to choose from, and highly selective colleges tend to have a higher concentration of better students.
Median First Year Earnings: All Engineering Majors (2019)
T20 Non-Ivies – $73k
Ivies – $70k
Michigan – $69k
T50 Privates – $69k
T50 Publics – $67k
Purdue – $65k
All 4-Year Colleges – $63k
Median First Year Earnings: Mechanical Engineering Majors (2019)
T20 Non-Ivies – $72k
Ivies – $71k
Michigan – $70k
T50 Privates – $66k
T50 Publics – $66k
Purdue – $66k
All 4-Year Colleges – $63k
I agree that publics with a large number of engineering majors tend to have more companies at job fairs, but engineering majors at privates that are at least okay in engineering also tend to have plenty of companies at job fairs, and students attending such colleges tend to do fine in finding employment. The specific details vary from college to college. A large portion of colleges publish various stats about post-graduate employment by major. For example, one for Purdue is at Purdue CCO . It lists a median salary of $69k in ME and $68k in all engineering except computer (excluding since CS shows different pattern). One for Rose Hulman is at https://www.rose-hulman.edu/career-services/PDFs/2020%20Class%20Summary%20and%20Major%20Overviews.pdf . It mentions an average ME salary of $70k among those employed. Only 7/145 = 5% were still looking for employment. The overall average across all non computer/software engineering looks like it is $69k.
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Nice research and I am not debating someone with the word “Data”, in their name… Lol but I think your helping me make my point (or I will spin it now 
)…
First off I stated something about if a company had 4 graduates from different universities they would all make basically the same salary in the same program regardless of what school they came from.
Also salary tends to be regional to a point. T20 schools are “mostly” in the East and West where cost of living is higher. I would expect those salaries to be actually much higher. Assumption is majority of graduates stay local or in region. Just an assumption.
Thirdly, I think…and this is just for illustration. If these outcomes are pretty much similar… Then why overpay at a T20 for the same salary outcome as your local public state school. Isn’t that a better ROI? (Yes, not every state school might fit this bill).
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My daughter went to an ABET program which required 131 credits to graduate, with 15 credits in required class like 2 writing (English) courses, a humanities, and 2-3 others. That was PLENTY of non-STEM classes for my daughter. She arrived at college without a single AP or DE credit. She was in Calc 1 and chemistry 1 for placement. Basically, she needed every class in the sequence for every subject. She did it (and enjoyed it) in 8 straight semesters, no summers. I think she got to take 4-5 credits of ‘fun’ classes her final semester, and because she was an athlete she got 2 credits one semester for her sport. Other than those, it was STEM classes. She wouldn’t have had time for a minor and didn’t care.
The 15 required credits in non-stem subjects were probably too many for her; she hated the writing courses but did well enough in them to be asked to be a TA (which she turned down as it would have been torture for her).
If she’d dropped her engineering major, she would have switched to chemistry or math, and even more English or humanities may have been required. She would not have liked that.
For me or for my other daughter, this tech school did not have nearly enough classes in the non-STEM areas but for this daughter it was fine.
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I don’t think I’ve ever seen anyone on CC suggest that their kid would do best in a non-supportive environment or that they would prefer them to be at a cut-throat competitive school.
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Starting salary can vary by experience/skill and can be negotiated to some extent, but I agree with the general point. Many posters seem to assume that employers are going to be really impressed by prestige of college name and will pay a higher salary for it and/or only hire from those colleges. It rarely works that way in engineering… or in the vast majority of other fields.
State schools can be a great option for many students However, there are a variety of reasons an engineering student might prefer a T20, including cost. For example, a comparison of the average net cost for in-state federal database recipients is below for different schools. Michigan does not appear to be significantly lower average cost than Princeton or Northwestern, unless the student is from a wealthy family.
Average Net Cost for In State (federal FA database)
$30-48k Income: Princeton = $3k, Michigan = $6k, Northwestern = $7k
$48-75k Income: Princeton = $5k, Michigan = $11k, Northwestern = $11k
$75-110k Income: Princeton = $17k, Michigan = $17k, Northwestern = $17k
Among students from wealthy families, state schools are also not necessarily the lowest cost option. A student who is accepted to T20s, but is too wealthy to qualify for FA could probably find some alternative schools that are near free after merit scholarship. I realize that the OP is not looking at schools as selective as any of the above, but the point is it’s far from a given that the state school is going to be the lowest cost option.
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OP is full pay and seems to prioritize academic fit and social fit above financial fit. Having said that, full CoA does differ from college to college. OOS public flagships (Purdue is probaby among the least expensive) tend to cost $10-25k less than many privates, but some privates do provide significantly more for their students (not just pampering). Some of the best ones spend more than full tuition on each student. One college (Caltech), I heard, spend twice the amount of tuition on each student and not an insignificant part of that spending is on student researches.
Outcomes are also not all the same, even in engineering. MIT publishes one of the more detailed outcome surveys. In its last survey (for the class of 2018), the median starting salary for its graduates who went to work for engineering firms was around $90k. However, how much of it, if any, is due to the college is highly debatable.
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The thing about state unis is that some kids just don’t want/wouldn’t do well in large universities. S wanted a small school because he wanted small classes. One of his final choices was about 3500 students but the engineering classes were 100+. He chose the school with about 7000 students, and his classes are capped at 24. And we’re paying about the same as at our state university. It’s not as highly ranked as the state school, but they have 100% placement in engineering.
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Yes, thank you. Academic and social fit are top priorities. We are full pay. He may receive merit, but we’re not expecting or counting on it and won’t have specifics until decision time.
So is there a correlation between how much a university spends per student and “supportive” environment?
Last night I was reading this 2018 thread (@momofboiler1 @1NJParent @ucbalumnus) and it was suggested that Michigan was the most “supportive” because of spending.
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@taverngirl Yes, class size is still a concerning issue for us too. Although even at smaller Case Western, intro lectures can be up to 250 and it sounds like class size at Michigan can be on the smaller side. One of the main goals over spring break is for my son to weigh in on class size and university size. I hope he can get a “feel” by for it walking through campuses.
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A school with a strong core requirement might just have your kid take a course or more that will pique his interest and give him some clearer direction. That’s part of what a strong core is about…exploring many disciplines and some maybe out of your comfort zone.
Re: parties…there are partiers at every college…and those who aren’t partiers. Your kid will find his group regardless of where he attends college.
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@Twoin18 Ha, excellent point! Kind of goes without saying, right? And I haven’t heard a single university claim to be anything less than “collaborative” (most used word on engineering webinars), yet we all know some schools that are known to be more “competitive” by reputation.
Earlier, the point was made to me that earning at certain GPA to secure one’s major, such as up to 3.5 at Wisconsin, would make an environment more competitive and stressful.
In terms of “supportive,” I’m trying to stay away from “sink or swim” schools. I’m looking for easy access to tutoring, study skills and transition to college coaching and/or classes, and friendly faculty or student advisors who care if my son is adjusting to college life. I probably care about these things more than some parents on CC and have a designated column on my spreadsheet.
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@thumper1 Totally agree! But wouldn’t you say that there are certain colleges known for Greek life and/or party culture?
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@Data10 Thank you!!! It’s great to know that there’s not a huge difference in first year salary among difference types of schools. Is this because ABET has standardized programs considerably? Are all engineering programs just so darn hard that employers pay similarly?
@Knowsstuff Valid point- why pay double for a degree that will net the same income.
Side note: I would pay more for social and academic fit, because I think this will help my son make it through the four years. Otherwise, shouldn’t he just go to Alabama for free?
OP- you need to peel back the onion (IMHO). People use different terminology to mean different things. One of my kids went to MIT, which has a perception of being a stressful pressure cooker, intensely competitive, uncaring administrators, and faculty who are only interested in research and hate teaching undergrads.
None of that turned out to be true in our kids experience (full disclosure- he was not an engineering major, but many of his friends were, and we got to know some of them well especially since our house became the “crash pad” for many of them during breaks, etc.)
Tutoring and support in particular- VERY easy to access. But- and this is the but- professors don’t come to your dorm room and haul you out of bed if you’ve missed three labs in a row. You WILL get what’s called a “fail mail”, which is a friendly “invitation” to drop by during office hours to review your last problem-set, quiz, writeup, project, whatever, and identify the weaknesses and come up with a remediation plan. That includes tutoring, one-on-ones with a grad student, small group sessions, more time with the professor, etc. And having Pass/Fail freshman year while kids adjust to a markedly more difficult environment than even the best high schools in the world surely helps kids focus on learning and not on competition.
But even with these resources (abundant, available, accessible, friendly, non-judgmental) a student has to have enough self-awareness to say “Hey, I got a C- on my midterm. Maybe I’m not studying the right way; maybe I’m not getting the core concepts, maybe I need help. My professor keeps inviting me to drop by- maybe I should”.
So have your son identify what it is that “support” means to him. Because you can do all the research in the world, and find the most “supportive” and collaborative environment for him- but HE still needs to do the heavy lifting once he gets there!!!
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@twoinanddone I love hearing stories like this. Thank you for sharing. I can only make predictions for my son based on what I know about him today. He could very well love his stem classes and dislike non-stem classes OR he might discover a love for some random topic that he hasn’t been exposed to yet. College has the potential to provide many types of possibilities and opportunities. At 17, he has a world of growth ahead of him 
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@blossom Totally agree. We’ve been practicing. I’m letting go of the ropes and questioning more. Last night he watched a grade slip from an A to a B and told me about it. I asked him what he was going to do about it. He had a couple ideas. Last week, he was able to speak to a teacher in person about a LOR for a summer program and followed up by email. The hard part has been asking for help when he needs it. He doesn’t often need it, so isn’t in the pattern/doesn’t feel comfortable asking a teacher (or classmate) for help. He would rather dig in and get it done.
In terms of support at college, I know he will need many supports as the demands and rigor increase. You’re right that HE will need to access it. HE will need to catch the problem and solve it. I can see this happening. All bars are lit in this kid. He is fully aware when he’s having an issue. He understands the cost of failure. Will he be able to step outside his comfort zone to get help or will he be too overwhelmed?
Even though all colleges will have supports and there are likely many kids who will need greater support than mine, I have seen varying levels of accessibility in my research. I prefer to send him to a college that encourages and prioritizes their support systems.
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@blossom Does MIT offer a pass/fail freshman year? I haven’t hear of this before! Are there other colleges that do this?
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