In looking at schools, I see that many of the bigger ones or even the medium sized ones have the school of engineering or the school of arts and sciences, etc. My son is very strong in math and science. He is taking AP Chem and pre-calc this year and next year will take AP Physics and AP Calculus. But not every kid knows exactly what he wants to do career wise and my son is one of those in terms of his overall maturity. His passion has always been music, not legos or minecraft, etc. Maybe he will want to do data science, maybe some other career in science–he doesn’t know yet. Maybe engineering but he definitely doesn’t know that now. How do folks in this boat handle choosing a strong math/science school when you are not sure of the direction within the field (other than he prefers Physics and Chem to Bio) and therefore can’t apply to the school of engineering, or the school of computer science? I get it that the cost of college creates this tremendous pressure. Are the schools of arts and sciences sufficiently respected for their math/science? We are at the very beginning of our search but are looking at schools like U of Rochester, Carnegie Mellon, Wesleyan, Clark. Really don’t even know yet if a LAC great in math/science and music is the right direction or one of these medium sized schools, so pardon my ignorance in advance.
thanks,
Look for schools where changing major to any of the possible majors (math, physical sciences, engineering, computer science) does not require another highly competitive admission process.
CMU would not be a great choice if he remains undecided, due to internal admission barriers between computer science, engineering, and science.
One school that might be of interest is case western reserve university in Cleveland. Unlike many (most) uversities, you are admitted to the university as whole and may switch between majors at will (even engineering). Of course if a student doesn’t start with engineerig sequences it might be difficult to fit in requirements and graduate in 4 years. But Cwru is known to be pretty flexible with students waiting to declare a major. Cwru is strong in sciences and engineering. (Their thinkbox maker space is awesome.) And their humanities aren’t bad either. They are a peer to u of Rochester and they give good merit aid. Students at Cwru can also take classes at Cleveland institute of music, like the Eastman school at Rochester, a very fine Conservatory. Severance Hall,home of Cleveland Orchestra (one of the worlds best) is practically on campus and they have very inexpensive student tickets available.
That being said I am also of the belief that a student can get a great science education at a LAC as well. But with most Lacs engineering will be off the table. You could see if your s is interested in places like bucknell, lafayette, trinity, union. All have engineering in context of LAC environment. Easier to switch from engineering to math/science than going the other way
Another idea might be Lehigh. Strong in engineering and Stem. And a number of interesting interdisciplinary majors. But I think you have to apply as a freshman for most of those programs.
Finally, what about trying some kind of engineering summer program (if that is in the family budget) ad a rising senior just to give son a taste of whether engineering might be of interest.
MOST students do not really know what they want, but they feel they are supposed to know what they are going to do with their lives at too an early age with too little experience. Would be STEM students often know next to nothing about the content of a thermodynamics course or the flavor of a day’s work in chemical engineering until they experience it. A lot of this problem is generated by the unrealistic expectations of adults (and sadly, many schools).
Most students know the broad hemisphere of their strongest interests:
1. Be sure they have the flexibility to change majors without a readmission process;
2. Determine if the school has a truly functioning first year process to mentor students with an on-going dialogue;
3. Be sure strong minors exists to address non-STEM interests such as art, drama, music, writing, history, etc.
Generally speaking STEM based universities often offer a wider range of applications for the STEM interests than the more traditional universities. Case Western is an exception because it is actually the result of a merger between a classic STEM school (Case Institute of Technology) and a more traditional university (Western Reserve).
Another school to consider is WPI because of their pioneering approach to project education which integrates course selection with project work… mentoring is an integral part of the entire process. Check out: https://www.wpi.edu/student-experience/career-development/majors
Considers schools that have flexibility like Case Western and Lehigh. I would consider taking the freshman engineering curriculum. It is primarily physics, chem, English, calculus, and basic coding. It is easy to change out of, but hard to change into because of all the requirements.
Have you gone on any college visits? My daughter was undecided until we toured a bunch of schools, from LACs to large research universities. We attended Arts and Sciences info sessions as well as Engineering info sessions and tours. It was really an eye opener for her, and she came away with a definite preference (engineering at a larger school). She is now a freshman in college and is loving it.
As a general rule, if a student with an interest in science and math is unsure about applying to engineering vs. arts and sciences, it makes sense to apply to engineering.
Engineering programs are highly structured – much more so than any program in arts and sciences except chemistry (which has a strict sequence of courses). If you start in engineering and transfer to arts and sciences later, you will still be able to graduate in eight semesters in almost all cases. But if you start in arts and sciences and transfer to engineering later, you may need extra semesters to meet engineering’s very specific graduation requirements.
If your son is a good enough student to seriously have considered Carnegie Mellon, he might want to take a look at Cornell (my alma mater). It’s relatively easy for students at Cornell to switch from engineering to arts and sciences, and some majors (such as computer science) are offered in multiple colleges within the university, which helps some students avoid the need to switch.
Two questions, though: If music is his passion, why isn’t he pursuing it? And if he has decided not to pursue it professionally, what is he looking for in terms of musical opportunities at college? I ask the second question because students with a strong interest in and ability in music but who are not majoring in it might actually be better off at universities that do NOT have a conservatory-level music major. At that type of university, they would be welcome in all of the musical ensembles. The ensembles actually need them because they can’t fill all their seats with music majors alone. But at universities that do have a conservatory-level music major, music opportunities may be mostly reserved for the conservatory students.
That’s my other reason for suggesting Cornell. It does not have a conservatory-level music major, only a much less demanding (and not very popular) liberal arts music major. Students from throughout the university are very welcome in all the bands, orchestras, and choirs.
My junior daughter loves math and science in general. Like your son, biology is lower in her likes (although even that is preferred over English and social studies!).
She is currently taking physics, AP chem and calc BC and enjoys them as much as we were expecting when she took chemistry and precalc last year.
She is leaning towards starting with an engineering major (specifically chemical engineering) but she knows that could change as she explores subjects more thoroughly and learns more about other fields. Her plan is to go to a college that has chemical engineering but also where she could easily change majors if her path changes. So we want a strong STEM school with large number of majors in the math/science/engineering fields.
I was going to say the same thing as Marian about a non-BM student’s possible problems with access to opportunities on a college campus that has a conservatory or school of music. But this varies so check it out.
I think Clark is a great choice and WPI is nearby, part of a consortium. Northeastern, with its coop program, might be worth a look. There is a focus there on career, if he is worried about that, though personally I think students should be able to go to college and study things they love and worry about career later. Interning and volunteering can also help clarify while a student continues studies in a subject they have true interest.
Schools that don’t have gen eds might be good for exploration as well. Amherst and Brown come to mind.
There is an excellent music forum here if that helps. It is perfectly fine to major in music with no intention to pursue it professionally. Just like any bachelor’s, maybe even more than some, it gains access to grad and professional schools like law or medicine, and to any job that requires a BA. Am academic music degree at a college includes theory (which he might like), history, ethnomusicology, composition, and technology. There is often a performance component and then performance is extracurricular. Often lessons are offered for credit. Wesleyan is wonderful for world music.
There is a lot of intersection between music and technology these days, and grad work is possible in that area at many, many schools. Check out Brown’s MEME strand in the undergrad music major for an example.
He sounds like a kid who needs to go on campus and explore some areas of study, including math, sciences, computer science, music, and music technology. He could take an engineering class, perhaps, if available, and the summer program idea is a great one (he could also do a music program- check out Walden School in Dublin NH).
Other factors like size, location and “vibe” may be important too. Looking through actual course descriptions can help clarify too.
Early pressure (that kids put on themselves, but finances are an understandable factor) to decide on career can, I believe personally, interfere with ultimate opportunities. All of us have seen our kids worry about this. Some are lucky and know what they are interested in. I think pursuing interests without career pressure yields great results over time but I now it is scary for them.
Good luck with the visits and applications!
Another school to look at is Northwestern - they have a 5 year dual degree in music and engineering and the school is very flexible about allowing changes to majors and across schools. I agree with Marian however, that it might be easier to pursue music in a place that doesn’t have a conservatory. I know that many Cornell engineers minor in music (as told to us during the engineering info session). It is also relatively easy to join the marching band - my daughter told me about a friend that joined without even knowing how to play the instrument they assigned to him! Keep in mind that it is relatively easy at most (but not all) schools to switch out of engineering, but very difficult to switch into it.
At CMU he can apply to CS, Science and Engineering all at once. I think you have to write an essay that works for all three. By April he may have a better idea as to what he wants to do and be able to pick one. CS requires a minor and there is a music minor at CMU that seems to be a well established route. (CS at CMU is also extremely competitive to get into.) People often recommend starting in engineering because of the sequencing of the courses and it is usually easier to transfer out of engineering than into it. (An exception is Columbia which does not want you to use Engineering as a back door to a Columbia degree.) I’m not saying CMU is right, but it may not be as wrong as it seems on paper.
First, he’s still a Junior, so you have almost a year before he narrows down his list of places to apply. By that time he may have a better sense of what direction he’s headed - not a specific major, but maybe he’s know engineering vs. science vs. something more interdisciplinary. Even if he’s set on a specific major at that point (he loved AP Chem, and wants to be a Chemistry major), it still is a good idea to look at schools that offer flexibility, because studying and focusing at the collegiate level is different than taking one college level class during HS. At many of the larger schools, a significant percentage of students change majors, or end up declaring a different major than they intended when they enrolled. At smaller schools that may be harder to do. Several here are spot on regarding starting as an engineer - it’s not that the classes taken in arts and sciences won’t count toward that engineering degree, it’s just that the courses a typical A&S student takes that first year are likely to be spread out more, over 2 or 3 years for the engineer, in order to fit necessary class sequences: Those 4th year engineering courses have prerequisites that must be taken the third year, and those have prerequisites that must be taken the second year. As a result the first year might be taken up by 2 semesters of math, 2 semesters of Chemistry, 2 Semesters of Physics… which wouldn’t all fit the typical schedule of an A&S student.
Make some campus visits - even if they’re not schools you’re considering, visit small, medium, and large campuses to get a feel for what they’re like, because he might get a mailing from a place you initially never considered, and can at least evaluate based on factors similar to campuses you have seen, so you’re not spending next summer touring the entire country.
Folks–not only have you answered my question on engineering, science, etc. but you have anticipated the question about music in a conservatory vs. not in your responses. Son is a strong jazz musician–he is in 3 jazz bands on piano at very high levels. He’s not classically trained so I don’t think a conservatory would be an option. As his parents, we’d certainly like to see him majoring in math/science/STEM rather than music due to the realities of the world today. His own views on that will evolve. We’d love him to be able to be in a jazz ensemble and take courses. Being a pianist makes that even harder because it isn’t an instrument of which there are multiples. thanks all.
SMU has all of what you are looking for also. Look into that. I was an engineering and math major there and I had a friend who was involved in music and engineering. My husband was in the sciences. Look into it!
Another option: a 3+2 school. First three years are in a regular liberal arts program, with science and math included. Last two years are in an engineering program, usually at a different school. If he doesn’t want to do engineering, he can stick with the college he’s at and graduate with a non-engineering degree.
Some info about these programs here:
http://www.thecollegesolution.com/considering-a-3-2-dual-engineering-program/
Students with a strong STEM preference should definitely consider a state flagship U. Do not overlook the strong math, sciences and engineering fields at these excellent schools, especially in the upper Midwest. Do not have the mindset that a ranked LAC will be better than a public university, especially in an Honors program. Wisconsin, Michigan, Minnesota, Illinois plus others in other states all have top tier programs in STEM fields. Plus, they offer a chance to indulge in music classes as a nonmajor and to change one’s field.
Do not assume an interest in math and science means an interest in engineering either. Some of us dislike it, me the Honors chemistry major (became a physician)- and son the Honors math major (who later added CS) liked theoretical, not applied math best. My son took honors sequences in both math and physics (plus more classes) before choosing math over physics. Son originally planned on math grad school but instead became practical, finished off the CS major and has been intellectually satisfied as a software developer/engineer. I agree that music may not be the best major due to the job possibilities- a niece who had scholarships for music performance and got her BA in it first worked for an orchestra on the office side and switched jobs to another place.
People with ability in math and physics also can be strong in music- very logical. Philosophy also holds interest and can be indulged in with electives while being practical. So many possibilities, especially at schools with large offerings.
Many students (perhaps most) will change the major they enter college with. Exposure to a top U’s offerings can change one’s mind. The first year will include the STEM courses needed for a variety of majors and breadth classes. Your son will also be changing a lot this coming school year before he does his senior year college applications, and will continue growing/changing/maturing throughout college.
This is the year to look at large/small, public/private, urban/suburban/rural settings college campuses. Seeing a variety of places will help your son know what is common to most schools and what type of atmosphere he prefers. Some of the decision making will depend on campus culture- religiousness, Greek presence (can be minimal or dominate), liberal/conservative, geography, weather, distances from home.
Finances are a major consideration. A great education can be had at numerous places. Figure out the family budget and merit/need aid availability at schools. CC has a site for this.
College is an education, not just in one’s major, but in so many ways. It is so much more than getting job skills as well.
thanks again!
This was me in HS. I like math and science but didn’t exactly know what to do. I ended up majoring in Electrical Engineering, but soon learned I didn’t like hands on circuits labs. But I did like digital electronics and communications…
I got a job as a SYstems Engineer…they need someone who is familiar with technology and can learn about communications protocols, work with customers, develop requirements for systems, work with developer and testers. I don’t use EE classes directly.
So my point is that even if he doesn’t know exactly what he wants, getting an engineering degree will prepare him for many technical jobs.
Most STEM schools actually have very strong musical performance groups. There is a strong correlation between music and math. (I did not make that up!). My STEM Alma mater had and still has a wide range of award winning musical groups and you do not have to compete with the conservatory for a position. They also do a lot of engineering project work relating to music. That school is WPI. You might also look into Brown university but the music competition would likely be much tougher and the STEM study area is very high quality, but the selection spectrum is less diverse.
To my knowledge WPI does not admit students with a restriction on major (not true for transfers) and the STEM spectrum is very broad. In fact the freshman year is designed to help students better explore directions and a choice of major. :bz
The music forum on CC has an essay entitled “Double Degree Dilemma” that is excellent. Despite the title, it discusses different ways to include music in studies, using several different hypothetical individuals. Many of us have found it helpful in clarifying paths 