<p>Okay, maybe I should be told MYOB, but I am worried about my son's friend going down the wrong road for college (though I know there are worse things to worry about).</p>
<p>He is a sweet, intelligent, somewhat-quiet kid whose parents do not make a lot of money. His plan is to attend the local commmunity college for 2 years and then transfer to Michigan State. No one in his family has a college degree (some attended that CC for short amounts of time) and they feel if he doesn't know what he wants to major in, then the CC is good enough for him.</p>
<p>I've seen too many kids attend community college and never go on to get their 4 year degree. And I can't imagine what it would be like to transfer to MSU as a junior - seems like it could be pretty lonely. I would love to see him look at Albion College (or a number of other schools), where I think he could prosper. </p>
<p>I guess I have three questions:</p>
<p>Should I keep these thoughts to myself? (I haven't broached the subject with anyone, even my son.) </p>
<p>Can a liberal arts school that gives good need-based and merit aid compete financially with a CC followed by a transfer to a state school?</p>
<p>Can transfers from CC's get any aid? Or, do colleges look at them as a "less desirable" student?</p>
<p>Just an answer to one part of your question. (Hopefully, our "resident experts" will show up to guide you more specifically). There are certainly those schools which will provide a "full ride" for students they want. Sounds like your friend is a good student and does not have his sights set on the "elite" schools (where many/most don't give merit aid and it is hard for anyone to stand out among the crowd of applicants): assuming this is true, and if you can post any type of profile on kid's stats and interests, carolyn, jamimom etc. can suggest schools which would fit and which have the habit of offering good aid.</p>
<p>I'm not a parent..I'm a student, but..I'd like to think I know something about this subject as I was once in it. I'm currently in my fourth and last semester at a CC here in MD. I wasn't a very..um, lets just say studious kid in hs. My CC has opened more doors for my life than I ever imagined. I'm on the dean's list and in the national honors society, I'm a tutor...Not the case a few years ago. I know that there is no way I would be applying/getting accepted at the places I am now. (I graduated in 2000, therefore my HS records aren't even considered, thank god!)
Here, anyone who obtains their associates degree from a CC in the state (Maryland) is guaranteed acceptance into any of the universities affiliated with the U of MD, even college park. I didn't get my associates, so I'm eligible for this, but know many who have taken advantage of the option. A lot of schools have limited spots for transfers, but it primarily depends on the major. I'm transferring to a nursing program, and the spots are limited..EVERYWHERE. I was already accepted to Seton Hall with a full scholarship and am waiting to hear from Georgetown. I feel my chances are high, but we will see.
As far as financial aid goes..There's tons of it! Many colleges and universities offer scholarships solely for transfer students, that you automatically receive upon enrollment, no extra forms or applications, just get in and it's yours. Transfer students are also eligible for many of the independent. scholarships first year and other undergraduates are(Deans, chancellors, presidents etc.). Phi Theta Kappa (the national honors society of two-year colleges) is also a great opportunity for transfers to achieve aid. It's highly recognized by most schools (unless it's an Ivy or Georgetown, grrr).<br>
Transfer students are also eligible for federal aid, and since many are older than the average freshman, they meet the independent cut off age (It's 23, most of us aren't there yet, but some are) so it's based off of their own income, rather than their parents which increase the probability they will receive aid.
While CC's may not seem like the best route, they in many cases are. For one thing, college isn't for everyone, we all know that. It's a lot more cost efficient to find this out at a CC rather than a four year university! College is what you make it to be in general, mine has reshaped my future, without a doubt.
In my opionin, your son's friend is by no means throwing his life away or going down the wrong road to college.
I hope this was helpful!</p>
<p>I completely understand how you feel. Many of my son's friends chose schools I didn't think were right for them. Mostly because their parents had no idea about the process. But we have to realize that not everybody believes that a four yr school is the only answer. Going to a community college for 2 yrs and then transferring seems a good option for many. I also realize this family (with no experience) is afraid of the cost and does not think borrowing money for 4 yrs is something they would be comfortable with. Also, if he's a senior now, there's not much chance that he can get any merit scholarships now. I also look at it from their point of view: as much as you have his best interests at heart, would you want somebody offering your family unsolicited advice?</p>
<p>The most I would suggest you do is explain some of the options to the boy himself. Bring it up lightly, in the course of conversation. Let him know that there are other places he could go. Then if he thinks it's a good idea he will take the idea to his parents himself. But if they decide otherwise, it's their decision to make.</p>
<p>I will give an example: my best friend from childhood. No one in his family had a college degree. He attended a local community college for two years after high school. He had two reasons for doing so: </p>
<p>1) it was a little less expensive, per college credit, than the state university where I enrolled after high school, </p>
<p>and </p>
<p>2) it offered, so he told me, smaller class sizes and more access to professors in the courses required for an engineering sequence than State U. </p>
<p>After two years at the community college (where, by the way, he met his wife, a very smart woman) he enrolled at State U. All his credits transfered, and he was a star student at State U. in electrical engineering. He eventually got all the requirements for a Ph.D. done except for writing a thesis, and he has had a great engineering career since, doing some very news-making work. He has a house in the suburbs, a great wife, great kids, and many interesting activities both in his work and in his home life. </p>
<p>I realize, after a few months on this College Confidential board, that I need to bring up this story more often, because as much as I am enamored of highly selective research universities (my interest in those brought me here), it is not strictly necessary to go to one of those universities to get a good education. My childhood friend has always been a man who made the best use of his available (once very limited) resources. A learner who takes initiative can make a mediocre learning environment a good learning environment, and a learner who expects to be spoon fed can waste a lot of opportunity in a great learning environment. </p>
<p>One footnote that I should add to this story is that my childhood friend's older brother was already on the path to transfering to State U. from the same community college when my friend decided to go that route. There surely is some knowledge of the process that a student has to have to make that transition work, but lots of people do that, and as long as your friend gains that knowledge, that may be a good path.</p>
<p>I didn't see what year this kid is in, so if he is a junior or lower, I would suggest asking him if he would like to join you on some trips to colleges, perhaps helping him meet some alternative paths (private schools with funding, state universities....) on a different scale, would be sharing with him some web sites, college mailings, or taking him to a college fair. Sometimes it is good to see a variety of things so you have something to compare, plus they don't charge you for college interviews and we know what a learning lesson they can offer.</p>
<p>Community colleges can be a good route to a higher education and not everybody benefits from going to college when they are 17 or 18 years old, so don't argue with the kid, or judge him, just offer to help open a few windows or doors so he can get a better view....if he says no (and he might) let him know if he ever wants to talk about this stuff there are people available including yourself.</p>
<p>Thanks so much, all of you. I'm feeling better about it now. I think now that my son has picked his school, I'm just trying to prolong the process by getting involved in others's choices. If I had the chance to be 18 and do it over again, I would have chosen a better school than I did (chose the cheapest state school in the state), but I've done just fine, so I'll just trust that everyone has the opportunity to make the best of their particular situations.</p>
<p>Again, thanks for your thoughtful responses.</p>
<p>The one piece of advice I would add is that you suggest to the kid that he check out the articulation agreements this CC has with state U's and possibly other colleges. Articulation agreements are contracts between CCs and colleges which specify which courses will be accepted for transfer credit and, sometimes, what GPA will give you automatic admission. Finding out what these are BEFORE choosing courses is essential. </p>
<p>I can't claim to have any personal experience, but I would think that kids who plan out their courses from day one with the idea that " I'll do it this way, so I can go on to a 4 year school" will be in better shape to transfer later than kids who just sign up for courses without knowing whether they will transfer. Knowing that if I get a x.x GPA, I'll be able to transfer to state U is also a powerful incentive to make sure you study enough to get that GPA.</p>
<p>While I understand how the OP feels, I don't think it's appropriate to talk to the boy or his parents. However, if the kids attend the same high school, it MIGHT be possible to approach a good guidance counselor and explain the situation. A GC CAN encourage the idea that the boy should apply to some 4 year colleges without stepping on toes as much.</p>
<p>It is difficult to get involved in other people's decision many times because we do not truly know what issues are at hand. Many of my husband's cousins took the community college route, and initially I was perplexed, but there were financial and maturity issues involved there. The kids either got into State U and commuted or had to go to community college, work and save money for the last two years of college should they choose to go away to school. Because many of them owned small businesses, though they truly lived frugally, they did have much extra cash flow, but the way FAFSA saw it, they had large enough EFCs so that much financial aid was unlikely. None of them got any merit scholarships. Though the paths each of these kids took, varied, the community college years seemed to work well with the families involved. For us, the local/community college commuting route did not work with our nephew. I feel that my kids reached a point where they just needed to get out there on there own more, and for them to stay home was not a good option, though I am keeping it open for my son. I would hesitate to recommend a college the size of Michigan State to immature kids, as the size alone of that school requires some organization and independence. I know a few kids from Pittsburgh who flunked out of Michigan State, and I know a number of kids who could not take the size and all the things going on at a big university. They may well have served better had they gone to a smaller local college or community college initially.</p>
<p>However, community college is no panacea for the slacker student who needs some nurturing. The drop out rates are a strong disclaimer for that. Many ccs set up the enrollments initially, fully expecting a high attrition rate. I have known kids who have done well at some selective colleges tank a cc course they take over the summer. If part of the problem with the kids is the environment, continuing as though college is a 13th year of highschool is not going to do a thing many times.. Of course the trick is identifying which kids would do better with which option.</p>
<p>For what it's worth, my d.'s college has just instituted 3 full-tuition scholarships reserved for community college transfers, and, as I reported elsewhere, Penn at least used to take two or three a year from the Community College of Philadelphia alone. </p>
<p>You could have (if you are on reasonable speaking terms with the parents) one of those "I know it's none of my business, but there are options...." conversations.</p>
<p>Many families simply do not understand financial aid. This is not just limited to those who never went to college. In California I encounter many lower middle class families who do not understand that a private college could be cheaper than a State college for them. And middle class families who don't understand that the two might well cost the same for them.</p>
<p>If you think a child and his family don't know, I wouldn't hesitate to tell them in an understated way. A teacher had to explain to my parents that they could "afford" Harvard back in the day. </p>
<p>It would be a shame for a child to miss a college opportunity because of lack of knowledge, and so many do.</p>
<p>I've faced this same thing several times with friends of my daughters and even with my friends. While some families really don't know where to start and are happy to have some input, There is often much more to the story than an outsider (even a close friend) knows about the family dynamics involved with deciding on a college or even where to go to college. You can give endless lists of colleges to a child or to a family and if you don't know the whole story of why they are leaning in a certain direction, the best list in the world isn't going to matter. The situtation grows even trickier if you suspect money is the underlying issue - many families will react defensively if you suggest that they can get financial aid and pretty much turn off to any suggestions you might make.</p>
<p>If I know the parents well, I may ask them some general questions to get a better sense of what's really going on --- "What is Johnny interested in studying? Have you checked out what classes the CC offers? What does Johnny's guidance counselor say he should do? How are Johnny's grades? Do you know he might be able to get a scholarship at some colleges?" (The word "scholarship" is often more palatable to parents who don't have a college background than "financial aid" which implies you are saying they are poor.)</p>
<p>I also try to use either my daughter or another child we know in common as an example to get them to think about options. "D. has her heart set on going away to school. We were worried about how much it would cost but I've been really surprised to find out how many private schools give scholarships. In fact, sometimes it can be less expensive after you add in the scholarship than going to a state school. I could give you the name of some guidebooks or some good web sites to learn about schools that give scholarships to kids like Johnny. Or if you'd like me to give you some names of schools where I think he'd have a good chance of a scholarship, let me know." </p>
<p>But, I must say, I am not all together convinced that community college is the wrong option for every child --- some kids do very well attending community college for the first two years and then transferring, especially if they lack family support. I know at least two of my daughter's friends will probably take that route due to being the first in their family to go to college and concern about finances. They are both smart girls and I know they could get financial aid somewhere but their families aren't willing (or able) to deal with getting it all together. I have offered to help both girls but without the support of their family, it would be a tough road to hoe for these girls and they honestly may be better off going the community college route.</p>
<p>michigander, as others have noted, it can be done--my coworker's daughter did two years at Washtenaw Community College and then came to U-M. However, both her parents were college-educated and her aspirations were never in question. </p>
<p>There is some research that shows that even when you control for everything else, students who go to community colleges tend to have lower degree aspirations than those who start at 4-year colleges. If your friends' son decides to start at a CC, my advice would be to do what you can to keep his eyes on the prize, so to speak. I don't know how often you'll see him, but I'd be sure to keep discussing MSU with him like it's the certain next step.</p>
<p>Interesting post. I had a friend whose son attended a very prestigious Catholic HS in NYC. You had to have good grades in Elem school and take an exam. He was ill advised by his HS guidance dept and told he should not apply to Georgetown as he would NOT get in. He had great SAT scores but did not rank that high in his HS...what did they expect??? It's a HS for gifted kids! Had he gone to the local rinky-dink HS he would have been TOPS in his class. Anyway..he applied and got into and attended NYU. I felt it was the WRONG choice for him....very very liberal....very very large and he would be unhappy there. I kinda said something...groaned or grunted or something when she said he was going there because he was given extensive scholarship monies.
As it turned out they didn't heed my advise when I said it is a very IMPERSONAL school with a much drug use by the student body. Well....lo and behold, he hates it. He's transferring this year to Georgetown...has his application in and is hoping to be accepted. His rationale? NYU is too big. He never has the same acquaintance from one day to the next. Has not made any stable friendships that he believes will last for any length of time. In choosing a dorm for the next year, did not even get chosen to stay with same roommate. Sad, really. I wish the best for him. And I didn't want to say "I told you so," which I didn't. But having come from a small Catholic HS into a large non-sectarian university in my day, I could empathize with his concerns. I'm surprised I survived and can only say I did so by alot of prayer and hard work as I was certainly out of my element as well.</p>
<p>Again, thank you, everyone, for your responses. This was the first time I have posted (though I've been lurking here for a couple of years) and I am amazed at your thoughtfulness in your responses. This is a great group!! Good luck in all your kids' decisions.</p>
<p>Carolyn, you put it very well. You just never know what the behind the scenes dynamics are in a family. I am good friend with a homeschooling mom with many kids. Their oldest daughter is a bright, motivated young lady, whom I truly believed would do well at a college that would expand her horizons rather than staying home and going to a local religiously affilated college, as many of their friends' and neighbors' kids do. The parents heartily agreed, as did the girl, and I jumped into the picture at their invitation. Well, I became overinvolved at a point and did not see it at the time. Somewhere in the process, the family decided that the local college was really the best decision, but they never told me. Probably because I was so enthusisatic about all of the other alternatives, and had inappropriatiely, rudely (yes, I admit it) panned that local choice since I thought we were all on the same page with this. It did strain the relationship, when the girl did get a scholarship to this school, and ended up there. And I felt like a fool (which I was in this situation). Had I been wiser, I would not have gotten so involved, and been more carefull about my personal opinions. I really should have known better, and still inwardly cringe when I think about that situation. So you do have to be careful about how you present alternatives and be sensitive about what the other person is thinking. It is very possible that he is not being upfront about everything. Nothing wrong with giving someone possibilties to pursue, however. Sometimes they just do not occur to someone, or they need someone to bring it up, and perhaps they will run with it. That is really the key---if they are willing to pursue the options that you suggest. If you find that you are the one bringing up the subject too often, then, you are overinvolved. But MYOB is a bit harsh , I think. I would certainly love to be told of alternatives and options from those who may know things that I don't, and I certainly research things that hit me the right way. Wouldn't you, Toblin, want to be told about things out there that you may not know that pertain to your kid or yourself? Nothing wrong with giving info. I recent gave a family some info on the New York Maritime program for their son who really would like that kind of program but they are on a limited budget and their son does not stellar stats. I just gave them the info as they had never heard of this program, and they went for it themselves and the boy loves the idea. If I had just MYOBed the situation, they may not have explored this option. But I certainly did not question them about whether they researched the progam or anything; if they pitched the info, that was fine with me. It's when you get overly involved in the process that you can make everyone including yourself uncomfortable.</p>
<p>I am familiar with Regis, Sgiovinci, and I would be surprised if that school did not have an excellent read on which of their students could realistically expect to get into Georgetown as Regis is a major feeder, both being Jesuit schools. There may have been a good reason why the young man did not apply there, particularly if the counselors there did not recommend that he do so. My son went to a school that had a line to GT, and though I did not think the counseling was so great there, they certainly had it down pat with a number of the Catholic colleges. A large number of the kids did get into both GT and BC, and the counselors had a good handle on their possibilities from the get go. The same with my girls' highschool.</p>
<p>Jamimom, been there, done that. It's easy to think that everyone wants information like the parents here on CC, but many families don't for a wide variety of reasons. I've learned to offer to point them in the direction of resources (including CC!) and then step back and wait. If the family is open to advice, they will ask for it.</p>
<p>I have had conversations about colleges and options with some of my daughter's friends ... never with their parents. The key is to whether I have a good enough rapport with the kid to chat comfortably with him or her. I just ask the kids what they are thinking of doing after high school, and then listen - offering suggestions and advice if the conversation leads that way. I mean, if the kid says, "um, I dunno, I'm thinking of going to the community college" - I might ask what he is interested in studying, or whether he has taken the SAT, or whether he has thought about some other college. If the answer is more firm: "I really want to take some time off from school and work for a year" ... or "I'm planning on going to cc and then transferring to the university" .... I don't offer advice. I mean, I can get the message pretty clearly in the kid's demeanor and attitude -- if the kid has a clear idea of what he wants to do, he doesn't need some one coming in and telling him he's wrong. </p>
<p>The kids come from all sorts of different family backgrounds, and as Jamimom says -- there are many, many issues that are hidden from view that other adults don't know about: health issues, emotional issues; family problems - as well as financial issues. I figure that it is always the kid's decision, and if I don't know the kid well enough to engage in a casual conversation about future plans... well, then I don't know know the kid well enough to be second guessing his future.</p>