Interesting. It’s a small sample size, but two people I went to graduate school both said they didn’t want to have kids, and they were both married at the time.
One didn’t have kids, and I know he regrets that decision.
The other did have kids, and I suspect she’d say it’s one of, if not the best, thing she ever did.
I’ve also know people who don’t have kids and are perfectly happy.
2 Likes
True. But our military is preparing for these potential futures, so our son studies these scenarios and our planned responses. It’s part of his job, thus it informs his worldview daily.
6 Likes
With respect to picking a lower-paying profession and having kids…people do it all the time. My spouse and I were not high-earners and that did influence how many children we wanted to have as we knew that children were (and remain) expensive.
With respect to those with dystopian views for the future, I wonder if it will really be as bad as some fear. For instance, many people fear living life with a low income. Yet, when speaking with people who were raised in families with low-incomes, they recall playing in the neighborhood rec leagues or having house parties playing cards or just sitting out on the front porch and catching up with the neighbors (all things that are free or low cost). They may have been eating hamburger helper rather than steak and asparagus, but the general impression was of a joyful time period because one was in a group together (family, neighbors, etc). Now, if one was one lone family with a low-income surrounded by the haves, then it could have been a very different scenario.
Now, moving over to the dystopian future, whether it’s climate change, geopolitics, etc, would life be that terrible if everyone’s in the same situation? They find it normal (even if we think that it would be a sad form of normal) and thus they go about their lives making the accommodations necessary while still finding a way to find enjoyment.
3 Likes
However, it is different if people see things getting worse now and in the future compared to the past. If the entire pie (economy, resources, etc.) that everyone shares is shrinking (negative sum game), then people will fight to keep the amount of it that they have, which means trying to get someone else to take the losses.
4 Likes
Okay, let’s go with something more specific. Let’s look at water. Maybe there are families in the southwestern U.S. who want to have lush green grass, wash their cars at least once a week, and don’t want to be conserve much in the way of water and they want their children to live that way, too. It will be increasingly expensive for them, but if they’re willing to pay enough, it may still be an option. On the other hand, there will be families who have gravel yards instead of grass, or whose cars only ever get washed by the rare thunderstorms, etc. Maybe they take a shower every other day rather than a bath every day (bathing/cleanliness habits in the U.S. as compared to elsewhere in the world is an entirely different subject). But if the people who are treating water as a scarce resource (whether due to their climate conscience or because non-conservative use is too expensive) will have plenty of company, and so they won’t be looking at their gravel yards or every-other-day showers askance…they will view it as normal.
I do not know how the birth rate changed in the Soviet Union as compared to pre-1917 and post-1989. But, I do know that families continued having children, even when life may have seemed grimmer than before, or that the outlook for future children seemed grimmer than what it was currently.
1 Like
Fertility rate fell greatly over that time period, although that also coincided with the transition of Russia / USSR from a predominantly agricultural economy to a more industrial economy.
1 Like
Except for 1940-1960, the U.S. has been in a pretty steady decline, too, though without as many steep drops. Russia’s current birth rate is 1.82 while it’s 1.78 in the U.S.
You are romanticizing what it’s like growing up in a low income family. Been there, done that, would not recommend and I’m sure I’m not in the minority.
7 Likes
Lol. Son works in a BB IB in the City as a 2Y analyst. Shops at Trader Joe’s each Sunday to prepare weekly lunch packs (usually grilled/marinated chicken or salmon plus salad). Lives in a 3bdrm (2bdrmF) in Murray Hill with 2 college buddies in a doorman building paying $6500/month ($2k plus each). He’s already built up a nice nest egg – we did pay for college so no debt.
So what people define as upper middle class is dependent on lifestyle expectations as adjusted for the location relative to others in that location. You can’t transfer lifestyle expectations (esp housing space) of suburban middle America onto high cost areas and then say the income level to qualify as upper middle income is extrapolated from that chosen lifestyle.
1 Like
Huh? I did not define anything you mentioned. 
That part not directed at you. Actually agreeing with you about expenses being relative since you mentioned making bag lunches, which my kid in fact does. Split the paragraph to make that clear.
I think there are gradations of low income (particularly as most people on this board define low income). If we’re talking low income as in you don’t know where your next meal is coming from, it’s not uncommon for your utilities to be turned off, and/or you’ve been unhomed at times (needing to stay with friends/family because you’ve been evicted/can no longer pay rent), then yes, the above is definitely romanticized.
However, there are plenty of lower income families who manage to stay above this threshold most of the time. Although we obviously all use income classes and thresholds differently, perhaps the poverty and near-poverty line threshold in this post would be lower class and the “romanticized” version is lower middle class or middle class. And yes, I’m aware that the real-world poverty line is higher for most areas of the U.S. than the federal poverty line. But the point I’m trying to make is that what many people on this board consider a “low” income can be perfectly sufficient and people can have a happy life within it, even if they can’t afford to pay for 4 years of COA at their state flagship for their children. My previous post may have been using too wide of brushstrokes, but I feel that a happy life can be lived with a far lower income than many on the board seem to feel is needed.
2 Likes
So true! And I think one thing to think about is: is the kid healthy both mentally and physically? That can be much more important.
2 Likes
One of my kids lives in a nice older purchased townhouse, and has a newish car (largely because someone else totalled his old one last year). He has a Roth IRA, and a healthy emergency fund. He has savings, and a special savings for little weekend outings. He is a careful spender. And he is very very nice!
His income isn’t what most would consider high, but he knows how to handle what he has, and lives within his means.
He says…the personal finance courses he took in college were essential and should be required. He had one as an elective in undergrad. His grad conservatory required everyone to take a course about finances for the self employed artist as part of their program. I think it helped also that he grew up in a home of careful spender parents!
8 Likes
I would never want to romanticize living in poverty or struggling to make ends meet on a very low income. However, I do think that many CC posts seem to imply that anything less than upper middle class = poor. I think that it is possible to raise content and happy children on a low to moderate income. Note, I am not talking about families with a very low level income because I think those families often must deal with stressors and insecurities that negatively impact their quality of life, physical/emotional health, and educational achievement. But I am talking about a lower income than I see referenced here quite a bit.
Having everything your family actually needs and being able to splurge once in awhile to access a few things that your family wants can be a pretty good life --particularly if you have reasonable job security and good health insurance. That is possible but not easy on a moderate income, which is where I consider my immediate family (children and me) as well as some of my extended family (siblings, cousins, and such). I will say that it has required a lot more hustle on my part to access resources that my some of my children’s classmates and friends take for granted (particularly educational resources). I’m also not sure that I would have known to access those resources if I were not well-educated myself, and I’ll admit that I have been fortunate not to face any major crises while parenting --the sort that can wipe out a family if they don’t have a ton of savings.
Still my kids appreciate what they have and frankly are a bit horrified by the entitlement that they see around them such as kids whose families make six figures and still complain about not having enough. I am not a unicorn among my friends and family at similar income levels. Most of them and their kids are also pretty happy with their lives though obviously they have had moments when they wish that they had more.
7 Likes
My husband and I have long thought that there needs to be a high school class (or at least some kind of learning module in a required subject) that covers personal finance. Our oldest learned a bit about it in economics elective. When our youngest was in college we were surprised to learn that he had never even heard of compound interest. I’m sorry we didn’t introduce financial topics more in dinnertime discussions.
Note - I did at least model some frugal tendencies, which were helpful but not required at our income level. For example, the kids would ask at the grocery store, “is this cereal on sale”. Turns out for a long time they did not even know what “sale” meant, just that I would veto their request if not on sale that week.
Seems like it would be a good topic of application when a math course talks about exponential functions.
1 Like
Yes, and I had actually assumed that had been covered somewhere in math classes. (And perhaps it was. He had an odd path due to some acceleration and school change).
Not always (not often, alas) the case!
The late lamented Barbara Ehrenreich wrote a great book about the working poor, “Nickeled and Dimed.” A good read, and it holds true today as well.
4 Likes