what is going on at colleges,this can not be real(it sadly is)

<p>I thought his argument (that he could never have non-sinful sex since he couldn’t marry) was pretty interesting. It is always interesting to me when young people stay in repressive environments and try to promote change instead of leaving… the really easy choice imho</p>

<p>I think our kids’ generation is getting to the point they think beyond gender and are uncomfortable with single sex groups. It bothers me when LGBT groups in colleges don’t allow allies to be members, for one practical reason, it makes the group less accessible to students still in the closet. Overall I definitely have mixed feelings about the right of a dominant powerful group to participate without invitation in a group intended to provide support for a marginalized population.</p>

<p>@Hunt‌</p>

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<p>I generally agree, although hard to imagine many cases where membership need be restricted (and some groups don’t even need or want restrictions on leadership).</p>

<p>For identity there are certainly groups that should be able to limit Male or Female (certain choirs as you noted, and some sports as another example). Conceptually I don’t even have a problem if an Asian student association wanted to require that its officers are actually Asian or alternatively that each officer comes from a different Asian country… or that the Engineering Student association require that its officers be engineering students. There are few examples where an identity requirement would be valid for a student group though, but as you say requirements based on beliefs and conduct may be in some cases closely tied to the mission of the group and thus be valid.</p>

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<p>The problem with the LGBT issue is that people on opposing sides disagree on whether it is conduct or identity.</p>

<p>Another problem is those who believe it is identity, but want to prohibit conduct.</p>

<p>I’ve thought about this so long that I think whether or not it is identity, if we accept gay is okay, choosing gay is okay too. It isn’t a lesser choice for those individuals who seem to have a choice. imho</p>

<p>You can’t limit to male or female unless there is a strict rule, like a governing organization. Where would transgender people fit in, or anyone who does not consider themselves male or female?</p>

<p>Listing gender at all should be optional other than for very limited circumstances, like college athletics.</p>

<p>I don’t believe one is born gay or anything on the LGBTQ and every other sexuality spectrum. I believe that you are born and you become what you become. It matters zero whether someone chooses to be something for their own reasons or not. There is no contest where “I found out I was gay at age 5” competes with “I didn’t know what sexuality I was until age 25, and I am gay”. It muddies any conversations about basic human rights.</p>

<p>If it is true, that it matters if you are born gay or not, then everyone should be fine with forced conversions from one religion to another - hey, it’s not like they were born that religion, they chose it and I’m helping them choose the right one! Just fine!</p>

<p>Well, you can know before attending Bowdoin that there (and at other colleges with similar rules), it’s considered identity, and the rules will follow that.

Presumably this would not be permitted at Bowdoin.</p>

<p>How about this: a group should be able to set the eligibility requirements for leadership, as long as the current members of the group have the right to change those requirements through voting. Thus, if the Asian-American student association wants to require that its leaders be Asians, it can do so–as long as a majority of its members agree with that requirement.</p>

<p>@rhandco Do you have a child who is gay and if not how would you know?</p>

<p>I think I understand rhandco’s point about it not being a competition. Some friends (and family members) tell me they were “born gay” and I believe them. Other friends tell me they could go either way and I believe them, too. Most young people I know, in heterosexual relationships, identify as bisexual. I find this charming on several levels. I just love our kids’ generation approach to life.</p>

<p>Colleges should have no sanctioned organizations that either through name or rules, either explicitly or in practice are limited to one particular race, religion, sex or sexual orientation. So no Christian Club, no Asian-American student organization, no Muslim Students Association Clubs based on study areas or interest areas like clubs for Chinese language, Bible or Koran studies, gay studies, etc. See the difference? The names and missions of the former are exclusionary. The latter are inclusive of everyone. </p>

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But the College Christian Fellowship and Christian studies group would have very different purposes. The Fellowship group wants to get together and have worship and prayer meetings. You would ban this? I can see requiring them to admit anybody who wants to attend. By way, there used to be (and may still be) a group at Yale called the Black Church at Yale. There were white members, even back in my day.</p>

<p>Please explain what you are asking. But I’ll try to clarify anyway. I’m sorry if you find my post offensive, it is what I feel based on my experiences. YMMV, this is a dialogue.</p>

<p>I know my own personal experience, and I have friends who are gay with whom I’ve spoken to on various issues including family and background. I know that I do things that I choose to do, and that others do not and perhaps are offended what I choose to do, and no one has the right to stop me as long as I am not hurting you.</p>

<p>I am saying that it is a fallacious argument to say that it matters at all if someone is born gay or becomes gay, or is born hetero, or becomes hetero, or is born bisexual or becomes bisexual. Stay out of the bedroom and let everyone share the same civil rights.</p>

<p>FWIW, I am for banning government involvement in marriage at all, it is only a religious ceremony and religion should not be regulated in the US.</p>

<p>I had no idea of even my gender until I was at least 10 years old. I did not identify with women on TV, I identified more with men because I didn’t wear dresses or like sports, but I really didn’t get that there was a huge difference until I ran around without my shirt on and my mom yelled at me and tried to explain why that was a bad idea.</p>

<p>Then again, I didn’t know I was white until I was 12 because of my skin color not being near white, and then later found out that I am multi-racial which my father denies despite proof and other relatives confirming. And I didn’t know I was straight until age 18.</p>

<p>So either I am totally in denial that I knew I was straight from the crib, or it doesn’t matter if I knew I was straight (or gay or bi) from when I first remember, it is what I <em>want</em> to identify myself as. And frankly, I think that if my life partner was female, I would still be with him (her?).</p>

<p>And on the subject of college clubs saying “you must be this or that protected category in order to join”, don’t you think that there at least should be associates who can join who may or may not indicate whether they are in the category or not? What about people who are disabled but do not admit it for fear of job repercussions? Can’t they join a club for disabled people (organize accessible trips perhaps etc.) and be an associate member?</p>

<p>Dividing people up causes more problems than it solves. If you want a college-sanctioned club, I don’t think it is fair to ban members unless they join and break the rules, such as being abusive. That doesn’t mean that all members can participate on the same level, but that all members can engage in Can you have a non-college sanctioned club meet on campus? I guess it depends on the campus, I know that at least one of the colleges i attended allowed community groups to meet on campus, including religious groups not affiliated with the university.</p>

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<p>Bowdoin is just as accepting of Christians as any Christian college is of non-Christians, both support both types of groups. Not accepting Christian groups to me suggests not allowing them to exist on campus or get funding at all…at Bowdoin they can if they agree not to discriminate on the basis of race, sexual orientation, physical disability, etc.</p>

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<p>According to the Vanderbilt policy I posted last night, it is “within the confines of Title IX” or something along those lines.</p>

<p>Re: chastity as a requirement, I think that is fine, as long as everyone has to be chaste whether they are gay or straight, or don’t have to agree not to date inter-racially or whatever - it should be consistent for all.</p>

<p>It is funny, I keep hearing about ‘attacks on religious belief’, but normally what it comes out to be is demanding that religious belief cannot be the basis for discrimination in broader society. So opponents of same sex marriage claim having that legal is an ‘attack on their religious beliefs’, for example, when we are talking the right of legal recognition of same sex marriages. and de facto what they are claiming is that their beliefs are more important than anyone’s rights. In general, this ‘respecting our beliefs’ generally comes down to a concept I think is dead wrong, that their beliefs, because they are religious in nature, supercede everything else.</p>

<p>In the constitution, religious belief is protected, but it also faces the same hurdles other beliefs do, that is what about the rights of others? Workplaces are supposed to respect workers religious beliefs, but for example, a worker cannot claim a religious exemption (as much as conservatives have tried) and discriminate against a gay coworker or otherwise treat them with less than respect, if corporate policy forbids it. It is because the right of a worker to work in a hassle free environment supercedes belief, religious or otherwise. </p>

<p>A college is a community, and as such establishes rules designed to make that community work. if a belief of any kind operates in opposition to that, they have the right to regulate that. Religious belief, being an especially strong one, can bring people together but it can also separate people and sadly create tribes and hate, as has literred history with dead bodies and so forth. What Bowdoin and others are doing is saying that if you want a recognized group, that there are rules designed to make the environment as open as possible, where everyone’s beliefs are recognized. What AW wants and the religious right constantly wants is an exemption for religious belief, to put it above all others. For example, in the case of the universities they set rules that say if a student club wants funding and recognition, all members of the community have to be allowed to join, and also that they have to be allowed to run for the leadership. The same rules apply to the atheist group on campus, if a devout Christian wanted to run, they couldn’t stop it and the same rule would apply to a muslim group, if you accept the money and the recognition you accept those terms, pure and simple, and it applies to every group. The Young Republicans cannot deny a libertarian the right to join and run for office, the womyn’s center cannot deny membership to men (and yes, virginia, such a group existed at NYU, and yes, NYU had the same rules, despite some of its membership being miffed</p>

<p>As others have pointed out, in practical reality this is another of the myths of the religious right that doesn’t hold up. Part of the thinking is that the evangelical group is going to be invaded by atheists, gays, etc, who will ‘take over the group’ and ruin it, when in all likelyhood, few atheists or gays would want to join the group, and the mass conspiracy theories are more paranoid delusions like the black helicopter believers than reality. And if by some chance a gay person joined the club, and decided to run, the university doesn’t say they have to win…</p>

<p>The idea of these rules, and having been one of the leaders of the Student Activities board in my day in school and having to deal with issues like this I am talking from experience, is to try and make it so kids don’t ‘ghettoize’ their groups, to try and encourage people to go outside their comfort zone. The other point is the university is trying to be neutral, if you grant an exemption for let’s say the Campus Crusade for Christ, then what about the White Citizens Students Union that believes in separation of the races? What the religious want is special treatment for their beliefs, they want different rules, and it is one of the reasons we have had more than a few abuses in society, where religious beliefs were allowed to overwhelm the rights of others (for example, Connecticut banning the sale of birth control of any kind, because of the heavy influence of the Catholic Church in the state at the time). </p>

<p>Religion under attack in some ways it reminds me of some of the arguments about affirmative action or non discrimination policies, what it often comes down to is a group that had some kind of favored status, offended because they no longer had it (and btw, when I talk about affirmative action or non discrimination policies, I am not saying all the arguments against them are invalid or based on quite frankly whining, just that some of them IMO are). Religion, specifically certain Christian beliefs or teachings, were given special status in our society, and what has happened is that when religious belief didn’t automatically give them special status, we hear whining about attacks on religion. Something like this reputedly happened at Juilliard several years ago, the story I heard was that Juilliard, like many arts schools, has events based around cultural groups, and has LGBT days and so forth…and that when they proposed a pride day or some such, a religious group on campus that was composed of evangelicals with strong anti gay beliefs, protested and tried to get Juilliard to stop the event, because it ‘violated their religious beliefs’ and ‘made them feel bad about their beliefs’ and so forth, if what I heard was right there was quite a stink, but in the end Juilliard told them that the pride day was no different than </p>

<p>One other thing, not mentioned, is that if a student joins a group, they are also required to be respectful of the group. A gay student who joined an evangelical group and then spent all his/her time making fun of their beliefs, or wore a disrespectful t shirt or something would be in trouble, while groups have to allow other kids to join, it doesn’t allow those kids to act like jerks. Bringing bacon to a Muslim students group, or bringing a T shirt showing Mohammed having carnal relations with a donkey (and sadly, I have seen crap like that), or a t shirt showing two guys having sex to a religious groups meeting, would bring down the house on them…</p>

<p>I agree with others, I would love proof that ‘religious groups’ were being singled out, especially Christians. From talking to friends of mine who are atheists, Jewish and Muslim, they said they faced a lot more hassle from so called Christians than I suspect Christians did from anyone else.The reason religious groups get ‘singled out’ is because they are the ones who want to break the schools rules and still be a club, the rest of the groups whatever their beliefs tend to abide by them…and yes, even at a liberal school like NYU, there were problems with some groups along these lines, which I won’t go into, but let’s say it was groups with very strong beliefs, both on left and right, and they were treated the exact same way. </p>

<p>I can’t resist this:</p>

<p>MWAH HAH HAH - I AM AN EVIL ATHEIST TRYING TO DESTROY YOUR WAY OF LIFE!</p>

<p>(yet really, I am a <em>GOOD</em> atheist, and I’m NOT trying to destroy anything nor will I destroy anything… It takes too much energy to destroy things. That American Atheists group does not represent me, and they can go to Heck LOL)</p>

<p>My son has very good discussions at school about religion, religion of all sorts, and everyone is respectful of others’ beliefs. Except that is when he is with his atheist friends, it’s almost as bad as Lutherans talking about Catholics behind closed doors…</p>

<p>People are people, they’ll pick on details instead of the main principles. Let’s all just get along.</p>

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<p>Marriage is not “only a religious ceremony.” For that matter, plenty of people are married in civil, not religious ceremonies, and there are plenty of married people who practice no religion. </p>

<p>Coming in a bit late, but sure, I agree with awcntdb, #164.</p>

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<p>This is really all that needs to be said. I am really tired of people using the (unsubstantiated) “attacks on religious freedom” as a smokescreen for discrimination. Most religions preach tolerance, anyway. It is just the way some sects have distorted their doctrine that makes them exclusionary and hateful.</p>

<p>For post 194, the hypocrisy of many of the religious are apparent when it comes to same sex marriage (and yes, it has relevance to this post). The same people who claim that marriage is sacred, that same sex marriage violates their beliefs, if you say to them then take government out of the marriage business entirely, will fight that tooth and nail…they say that marriage has to be the term, but in reality, if we created a two tier system, where marriage was up to the churches, and to get the legal rights for your relationship you needed to file for civil union benefits or whatever, they wouldn’t like that, because despite their protests, it isn’t about the term marriage, it is about the state granting rights to same sex couples. Then they would say “but I wouldn’t object if it was called DP or civil unions, as long as marriage is left to the straight couples”, but again that is not so hidden bias, because DP benefits, and civic unions, are not esconced in law the way marriage is, and it is also saying from a legal perspective that marriage is for straights and is superior because gays cannot have it…</p>

<p>And it is relevant, because it is people who had a special privilege based on their religious beliefs , in this case that gays couldn’t marry legally’, taken away, and suddenly it becomes violating their beliefs (so tell me, does it dawn on these people that their beliefs infringe on others, that a lot of Christians, 60+ % of catholics, millions and millions of mainstream protestants, most Jews, most pagans, all tend to favor same sex marriage? What about their beliefs? How is making the law fit one viewpoint not violating the other one? </p>

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<p>^^^^^I really don’t get the “but gay marriage violates my beliefs” argument. Then don’t marry someone of your own sex! Problem solved.</p>

<p>If someone told that person “I believe drinking alcohol is a sin, so no one should be able to drink alcohol,” they’d likely see the problem with that logic. </p>

<p>OT: If you are going to reference a post number which was written many pages ago, it would seem considerate to just quote the post so we don’t have to hunt for it in order to understand the reference. JMHO</p>