<p>@awcntdb - here’s what I said, see? Post #89.</p>
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<p>I feel compelled to point out there are Christian denominations without any problem whatsoever with homosexuality. And that those that do see problems may change their ideas as younger members move into leadership positions. </p>
<p>Yeah, I would find it odd for a group that is supposed to promote the Christian gospel to elect as its leader someone who denies the Trinity. However, I would not find it odd that it elect as its recording secretary a non-believer. Maybe that person does a really good job of recording secretary.</p>
<p>And again, as I think OHMomof2 and sally305 are saying, no one is saying that if a Catholic group decides to have a meeting, it can’t open its meeting with a prayer to Jesus Christ. Or that at Shabbat dinner that is part of a Jewish club, they must allow bacon. It’s not about the practices, but about the membership. </p>
<p>Again, these aren’t churches. When you form a Christian club on campus, you are not creating a church on campus.</p>
<p>@alh - my parents’ church had a gay pastor for 3 years. And in other news, not all Muslims (or Jewish people) reject bacon.</p>
<p>But even if that particular Christian group does have an issue with gay leaders, they are free to elect leaders that conform most closely to their beliefs. </p>
<p>Is post #77 arguing that colleges encouraging inclusiveness and tolerance should attempt to identify and deny admission to those students who may be uncomfortable without a safe place that excludes gay classmates?</p>
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<p>For the example University chosen (Vanderbilt), it looks simple to restrict those who are allowed to run for office. Presumably other Universities mentioned earlier in the thread are similar. See documentation at <a href=“http://www.vanderbilt.edu/anchorlink/wp-content/uploads/Instructions-for-Using-Anchor-Link-Elections-Polls-Revised1.pdf”>http://www.vanderbilt.edu/anchorlink/wp-content/uploads/Instructions-for-Using-Anchor-Link-Elections-Polls-Revised1.pdf</a> and it is simple and apparently common in their process to allow a group to deny members admission as well (just not for the types of groups discussed above). See <a href=“http://www.vanderbilt.edu/anchorlink/2013/10/approve-new-members-requests/”>http://www.vanderbilt.edu/anchorlink/2013/10/approve-new-members-requests/</a></p>
<p>Obviously (see article 2 of <a href=“http://www.vanderbilt.edu/studentorganizations/students-organizations-manual/forms-and-other-helpful-tools”>http://www.vanderbilt.edu/studentorganizations/students-organizations-manual/forms-and-other-helpful-tools</a>) organizations can create membership criteria.</p>
<p>Now why would a group restrict people from running for office? I can think of some plausible cases where it might make sense, but any group should be able to set leadership eligibility rules that are closely tied to the group’s core purpose and mission
- Engineering Honor Society might have a GPA and major requirement (ie one of the various engineering majors) for its leaders
- Women’s student association might require that leaders be women (even if open to all)
- Asian student association might require that at least one of its leaders be Asian or might require diversity in its leaders (from different countries)</p>
<p>The leadership criteria themselves are not as important as allowing groups freedom to create rules that make sense for them and that are logically tied to their purpose - unless there is a strong reason that it would damage the University mission (which was clearly not the issue with the groups discussed earlier), since generally academic freedom and free speech should be respected where possible at a University.</p>
<p>@sally305 - The reason I bring it up because nothing happens in a vacuum. And I am fundamentally against differential treatment of groups, which does occur on campus. Just because you may not be aware of it and it may not be front page news does not mean it does not mean the differential treatment does not occur. </p>
<p>The treatment of devout Christian groups is a big issue on the college campus today. I am for making sure all fundamental tenets of each religion are accepted and not forcing any group to accept anything against its tenets. </p>
<p>Yeah, but you seem to be suggesting that, for example, allowing a person who is openly gay to join a group is the same thing as endorsing or even condoning homosexual behavior. </p>
<p>What Christian denomination, these days, expels a member for coming out?</p>
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<p>And qualifying religious conditions should be allowed for religious groups, if they deem those beliefs fundamental to their group’s beliefs. I was part of two political groups which required that the leadership agreed to promote the group’s Constitution. If a person did not agree to promote and support the constitution’s tenets, he was not allowed to run. But more importantly, the college did not say that person had a right to be on the ballet.</p>
<p>awcntdb. Seriously. Either religious groups are being treated differently or they’re not.</p>
<p>Can you at least offer some examples of devout Christian groups being persecuted on college campuses? And then after that maybe we’ll find some photos of Muslims showing off their special treatment.</p>
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<p>No, you’re still not getting this right. Bowdoin did not tell the group that it had to accept someone who promotes a practice that is against the beliefs of the group. The college told the group that if it wanted to be “officially recognized” (meaning, use college facilities and receive money from the student activity fund), it couldn’t have membership or officer restrictions based on sexual orientation. You want to tell gays and lesbians that they can’t join? Fine, but have your meetings off campus and on your own dime.</p>
<p>@skrlvr - If the group decides that it is antithetical to its beliefs then it can be the same to the group.</p>
<p>An analogy is an anti-drug group should not be forced to accept an open drug user, as a member or leader of the group. A drug user is the not the example the group wants to promote, so it should not be forced to.</p>
<p>Again, I have no issue what a group does. However, I have an issue of a college telling a group essentially, which beliefs are to be followed, and which should not in order to be considered part of Bowdoin.</p>
<p>You seem to have an issue with tolerance and inclusiveness.</p>
<p>Do you belong to a church that excludes openly gay members? Are you advocating for that type church to be allowed on campuses which make a point to promote tolerance and inclusiveness?</p>
<p>Members of a group or individuals as based upon their religious beliefs are free to find homosexuality reprehensible, or against the laws of God and nature or whatever. They can live by that belief by not having homosexual relations privately or as part of their worship or group meetings. The mere fact of another individual who is homosexual does not infringe on their ability to hold those views. Gay people, by there presence, are not “promoting” homosexuality or forcing anyone else to take actions that go against their beliefs unless human decency falls under that umbrella.</p>
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<p>You are making a distinction without a difference. </p>
<p>The college telling students they cannot be recognized on campus unless they disavow their beliefs is outright disrespect of the students’ religious beliefs. To be part of the Bowdoin campus, Bowdoin is saying their religious beliefs are not welcomed. Fine, Bowdoin can go that, but the message is clear, we do not respect your religion and its beliefs. </p>
<p>I come down on the side that Bowdoin should not accept students whose groups it will not respect and allow to be part of the Bowdoin community. Being part of a community does not mean being the same or being forced to be the same. It means understanding that different beliefs exist and are practiced.</p>
<p>Is Bowdoin so inclusive and tolerant that it accepts students who may find themselves at odds with the dominant campus culture? Isn’t it up the the student to figure out “fit”?</p>
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<p>No, I have a problem with someone telling others what they should be tolerant and inclusive of in order to be recognized, as a group. People are different and need not accept what others believe. That is not a problem; that is freedom to believe and practice what you want. </p>
<p>So gays get to believe and practice what they want,
and straights get to believe and practice what they want,
where is the problem?</p>
<p>It is NOT a distinction without a difference. MiddKidd is right.</p>
<p>No one is saying anyone has to “disavow their beliefs.” The college is simply saying–if you want us to recognize/support your group, it cannot stand in opposition to our institutional values. </p>
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<p><a href=“http://www.bowdoin.edu/communications/publications/mission.shtml”>http://www.bowdoin.edu/communications/publications/mission.shtml</a></p>
<p>Bowdoin is a private institution and thus can tell people whatever it wants about its particular views on tolerance. Students apply to and enroll at the college knowing what its values are. It doesn’t have to accept an ISIS information group or a collegiate KKK chapter. </p>