<p>^^ Colene, if you read through wong’s entire post you’ll see his claim that he AP’d and tested out of most of the intros. My theory is that he’s one of those personality types that imagines there is such a thing as a flawless engineering school with perfect faculty and angelic students. He probably doesn’t realize that kids frequently have problems, disappointments, and issues even at engineering schools like MIT and Caltech. He’s in a top 10 engineering program, but that is not enough for him, and in my opinion nothing will be enough for him until he gets real about the academic world – as well as the broader world in general.</p>
<p>I read through his post - I’m saying that intro classes are harder than upper level classes due to their rigor and grading scale. Those and writing seminars are probably some of the most rigorous courses you can take at Cornell. I could have AP’d out of many intro level classes too, but I chose not to use my AP credits and some of them (especially the sciences) are very challenging even though I did very well in the AP tests and classes in high school.</p>
<p>It’s also part of the reason why many people’s gpas are significantly higher in their later years than in their freshman year.</p>
<p>Thanks for the clarification. What you describe is often the case, but there are certain types of upper level classes that blow intro classes away in terms of difficulty/rigor – particularly for subjects like math, applied physics, et cetera.</p>
<p>@Saugus, don’t worry. If you take Honor’s econ here you will be abusing mathematics to its fullest extent with no fear (we start with multi, discrete optimization under linear constraints, move onto expanding non-linear differential equations around fixed points to test for economic stability, heavy use of Jensen’s/Holder’s, some measure theory), so take that if you want some rigor. In the words of the professor, once you have excelled (completely understand derivations and beyond) in this course you are ready for graduate level mathematical economic subjects. </p>
<p>@Colm/Colene- Maybe you guys are right, but I’ll tell you what the problem is (rantish):</p>
<p>There is no desire or thirst for knowledge beyond the class material here. The * vast * majority of students in engineering are ** content ** with performing well in the course and will simply memorize the material or work extremely hard towards achieving a good grade. Now I am beyond impressed at the work ethic of students in engineering here- it’s amazing. But, I’m the type of person who will question everything and anything until it makes perfect sense in my head. I will continually look for connections between topics and try to formulate new ideas from them. The atmosphere at Cornell engineering is not at all conducive to that. The students who excel in courses are not students who have a true understanding of the material but are simply the ones that work the hardest (the majority of the time…). Most of the engineering courses simply test problems covered on homework or basic concepts. They * don’t * test critical thinking abilities or problem solving skills. They don’t force you think above and beyond. There is no differentiation between students who have a true understanding of the material and students that simply work hard. More often times than not, the ones that excel in the course (in terms of grades) are the latter. Unfortunately, employers and others use GPA as a measure of ability in the course. Grades in engineering, here, do NOT reflect ability rather how well you can reproduce (not even completely understand) what was covered on homework or in class.</p>
<p>As far as professors (as people, not the courses) go, I am quite thrilled. I have spent quite a bit of time talking with them at office hours and outside of class, and many times the talks do run off into them talking about their undergraduate experience. And from what they describe, I feel like I would be happy at those places.</p>
<p>I simply am not happy here. I cannot let myself continue to take courses where I’m honestly not learning anything. My critical thinking skills and logical skills are not at all improving. I hate to say this, but ** I learned more during my sophomore year of high school than I have in 1 year at an ivy league institution **. This university may have an “excellent” and “reputable” engineering program, but it’s not for me.</p>
<p>The only thing that stopped me from transferring after first semester is that I realized I can challenge myself outside of academics. And, I have. This semester I obtained a on-campus internship and work on a project for a VC firm, co-founded and grew a company, became an analyst at the two most prestigious financial groups on campus, received acceptance and currently in three other clubs (research associate/a.i.g./trading etc.), currently work on research with a professor, pledged a social fraternity, am varsity captain of a sports team, treasurer for a club, heavily participated in many math and comp. sci competitions, all while taking 26 academic credits.</p>
<p>And now that we’re coming to the end, it was a fun semester, but I did not see myself challenged. </p>
<p>** endrant **</p>
<p>** When I come back to school next year, I will finally turn 18, and I think that is a great time to really reconsider my options. Currently I am ready to leave all this behind and look elsewhere. This is a diverse school with many opportunities, but it’s simply not for me, and I would be hurting myself by staying here. From what friends, professors, and research professor (did undergrad/masters/phd there) have told me, the student atmosphere at Harvard seems to certainly be a place worth looking into. I will spend a lot of time this summer exploring different colleges and trying to get a feel of the atmosphere there and then make my decision come winter time. **</p>
<p>Again, this is not a negative post towards Cornell Engineering, but simply a post describing why I don’t really fit in that greatly here.</p>
<p>Hm… I certainly kind of agree with what you have been feeling. The grading system is simply geared towards the kids who work the hardest for them - and some kids work really, really hard for them - and this might come at the expense of learning in the way that college is supposed to be.</p>
<p>However, the truth is that the students who work the hardest do get the best understanding of the material - just that grades aren’t always the perfect indicative factor. In more applied classes, the tests are revolved around application of learned material - so that’s the best way that they can test it. It seems like you are only frustrated with the grading system in my opinion.</p>
<p>What you relate above makes me wonder if you matriculated into college at too young an age, wong. You seem a bit na</p>
<p>Wongtongtong you are really transferring out of Cornell. Hmm you seem like the student I am from what I read. Maybe it is right after all that I turned down Cornell (although I am going to rpi instead rather than say MIT). Any idea where you will want to transfer?</p>
<p>One more thing wong – if you had started college at say Caltech or MIT, and you experienced very similar perceived issues (which I believe you surely would have), where would you then have allocated the blame?</p>
<p>Wong, it seems like you are a near-genius level kid; I was surprised to find out you’re not even 18 yet. Indeed, Cornell seems like it’s too easy for you. The problem is, do you really think MIT/Harvard are going to be that different? It’s not like Harvard engineers are doing quantum physics and Cornell engineers are doing pre-algebra. If you are really as dominant in your classes as you say you are, you will also find MIT and Harvard easy. I don’t know if they’re going to have more people like you who want to do more than just study for tests then forget everything, but overall, I highly doubt you’re going to get the satisfaction you want even at those schools if what you’re looking for is the perfect school with geniuses thirsting for knowlege everywhere (Caltech might be your best bet). At this point though, you should transfer as you don’t seem happy at all.</p>
<p>Woah, you’re not even 18 and you’re still cruising through classes? Wow. You must be a genius.</p>
<p>Harvard’s engineering is weaker than Cornell’s, so I think you’d be just as discontent there. MIT engineering is stronger than Cornell’s for sure, but I’m not sure that there will be a huge difference. You may just want to take harder classes. In any case, that’s a good problem to have, right? In the worst case scenario, you can get a 3.8+ from Cornell and land nearly any job you want.</p>
<p>The level of easiness is, to be honest, irrelevant to me. As long as classes have students who have an extremely strong curiosity for the material, and if the atmosphere is conducive to innovating rather than memorizing (to be short), I will be happy. </p>
<p>
</p>
<p>They should get rid of the curve*. Many capable students seem to be slacking off a bit and spending less time mastering the course material because they are “safe” thanks to the curve. All this is doing is changing the dynamics of the course where the professors are continually curving to the historic median and students are benefiting from this. This only worsens things. </p>
<p>*Get rid of it * until * students are really pushing themselves to the limit. Idk how they can gauge/measure this, so I’ll keep my mouth shut about the curve. </p>
<p>
</p>
<p>I didn’t have a choice. I was a senior. </p>
<p>
[quote]
You seem a bit na</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>You neglected to notice the second portion of the sentence you quoted wong, regarding the Jon Rubinstein example: “…and there are many others like him that suggest your misgivings are wrong." Also, “wrong” or “right” is sometimes subjective, and sometimes not, depending on to what is being referred.</p>
<p>
So, one reply of one student is enough for you to make a big decision? That, in my opinion, is shortsighted in the extreme. It takes over-generalization to a whole new level.</p>
<p>I still maintain the opinion that you would have not felt like you fit in at whatever school you chose to initially attend at your unusually young age, and with your naivet</p>
<p>Wong, where to do you want to transfer?</p>
<p>“I have friends here who are currently premed and are obtaining the highest grades in classes out of 200 students. If I ask them anything not on the hw or course syllabus (but still can be solved from an application of what was learned), even a simple question, their answer is “uhhhh…doesn’t matter they won’t ask that.””</p>
<p>They’re stereotypical premeds. I have a suggestion for you - be a premed, and get a feel for the world premeds live in, especially in Cornell. If you think it’s really easy here, you are simply not taking the courses known for their difficulty and you may be simply caring less about grades in comparison to those other kids. Getting the mean isn’t hard. It’s getting significantly above the mean that is really challenging.</p>
<p>If you can leave with one reply, then you are REALLY shallow. For premeds, their goal is to simply survive through college. There’s a lot of kids who simply care a lot about grades here (because of where they’re heading) and it’s a turn off for you - I understand that - but you have the choice to not be one of them and not judge them for their career goals. A lot of kids here were at the top of their class - and they carry that kind of mentality with them to college in how they strive for grades. It is highly unlikely that the situation is significantly different with any other top tier college where grades were a significant admission factor.</p>
<p>Really, it sounds to me that you’re just not happy with how the system rewards those who try harder instead of those who are intellectually curious (outside of class) with better grades. It’s a pretty common thing, in college and in high school.</p>
<p>Correction: be a premed with the goal of actually getting into med school, and you’ll understand how it’s like to be in their shoes.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Maybe that came out wrong. I meant to imply that I have seen that attitude far too much here (from a wide variety of students). And, it is ** VERY ** easy to spot that kind of mindset in a large class in lecture. If one student said that or acted that way, then I would simply move on. But, if I see that attitude day after day for 180 days, then there’s seems to be an issue at hand… </p>
<p>
</p>
<p>And for each one of the ** many others ** that you can name, I can find 10 such others at other colleges-- what’s the point you’re trying to make here? </p>
<p>
</p>
<p>I’m not at that step just quite yet but hopefully will have a list of names after summer. </p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Agreed. </p>
<p>Also, Colm are you a current student here??</p>
<p>EDIT: Okay I’ll stop trying to use metaphors on CC. Ignore the “that’s enough for me to leave”, and replace with "Maybe that came out wrong. I meant to imply that I have seen that attitude far too much here (from a wide variety of students). And, it is ** VERY ** easy to spot that kind of mindset in a large class in lecture. If one student said that or acted that way, then I would simply move on. But, if I see that attitude day after day for 180 days, then there’s seems to be an issue at hand… "</p>
<p>Colene, I came in as a premed. I don’t see that kind of attitude solely in premed but all engineering majors, with the sole exception of very few. There is a distinct “fu ck it won’t count/too hard/not worth learning/it’s too much/don’t really care too much” attitude.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>The point I am trying to make is that your academic world view is a bit myopic. Yes, other schools have great and creative alumni – I was making the point that this includes Cornell in a large measure to which you currently seem to be blind. The idea that Cornell doesn’t have its fair share of creatively intelligent students is simply a shortsighted mistake. One that has got to be insulting to a large majority of your current classmates.</p>
<p>I will return to this after Wednesday. I have 4 more finals left, so I should probably keep that as my main priority for now.</p>
<p>There is really no need to “return,” since you’ve already had your substantial venting, and others have already extensively responded. Good luck to you on your exams WongTongTong, and with your future endeavors.</p>
<p>@WongTongTong I think you’re hanging out with the wrong crowd. Of course, the main goal of premeds is a top medical school, so they’ll tend to only care about what’s tested in their classes and the MCAT. As for engineers, it’s a top job at Google/Microsoft/top tech company. If you really want to find more people with intellectual curiosity, you need to find students who are striving to get their Phds and eventually become a professor. Those are the guys who are smart AND intellectually motivated to the point where they are willing to devote their lives to research and studying the subject. They are the ones who will be wanting to learn everything there is to know about their concentrations and seek out advice even after classes on material outside what they’re learning.</p>
<p>Also, I couldn’t help but chuckle as you said Wharton is a school you’re looking at. Those guys are all cutthroat competitors whose ultimate goal is the brain drain called Wall Street. For most of them, the sole goal in life is money and fame, so I really don’t know how you would think you would find intellectually curious people in Wharton, although there probably are a few.</p>
<p>Wong tong - I’m not an engineer or in medicine, so take this with a grain of salt, but I had the same experience with academia. It’s not Cornell; it’s just how the entire system is structured. It rewards mediocre thinking by people who are deemed smart because they can just spit back what they’re told or, at most, figure out problems within the parameters of the question and prescribed answer. This forum is full of those people and I worry about their ability to thrive in the modern economy. Their skill-set seems far more suited to the 20th century.</p>