However, many people define prestige or eliteness in terms of exclusivity and selectivity, so that type of definition is often what underlies the definition of elite.
If you believe this claim, then most students cannot find admission safeties that are academically suitable, since the students will be at the tail of the distribution at an admission safety. This is also the case for students who need large merit scholarships to afford college – to get such merit scholarships, they need to be in the top-end tail of the student distribution of the colleges.
My point was that the concept of elite is very subjective, but to me the college has to have great programs across the board, i.e., all great departments. Looking at a college overall, I don’t think you can say the college is elite just because it has one single great program. My definition of elite is very narrow — not CC’s but mine. And there are maybe 5 colleges that I would not mind paying $70k per year. There is no way I am going to pay $70k per year for UCLA or Berkeley whether or not it’s elite. But having said this, I probably would if my kid really wanted to go there.
Safeties (or high reaches, for that matter) aren’t ideal. The ideal would be to find the matches. Unfortunately with our current system, not all students can find their matches.
The answers provided sound to me like people are trying hard to justify their decisions to attend “elite” colleges, because just about every point made could be applicable to “non-elite” schools as well.
People who choose elite schools do so for a wide variety of reasons, and its almost certainly not for the “classes”. Harvard used to go over on their tours that the entire idea of a Harvard education was about who you meet. Those connections last a lifetime. I see students getting all travel payed for at many schools, but moreso at elite schools. So for instance, MIT offers many travel programs to teach over IAP, or work in India on an engineering project. Elite schools may give graduate BETTER volunteer options later, to network for jobs. Elite colleges offer conferences to graduates, and job fairs. Elite colleges offer social events in all 50 states, see the Ivy + MIT events, that lead to jobs, marriages, business partnerships, and general success in life for the right person who takes advantage of these options. Its way way more than the “classes” offered and it lasts a lifetime. Also, starting jobs out of the shoot are easy, the hard part is age 45 plus when YOU NEED A NETWORK to keep employed. Elite colleges are hardly ever about the starting job, but still those may be excellent as well. Also some Ivy schools are very politically connected in Washington DC. Do you want to become a US Senator some day? Attending certain schools still helps.
Yes the definition of elite could be in the mind of the beholder. Of course there are great universities that I think most of us would agree that would be considered elite.
But when my daughter went to Indonesia through the state department with critical language learning programhttps://exchanges.state.gov/cls
She had the same deep conversations and didn’t feel out of place. She’s an undergraduate and most of them were doing their masters or PhD. Alot of the kid’s were from Ivy or well known Lac’s. She goes to Beloit College.
My son at Michigan (I feel it’s elite…lol…), Started a tech club and expanded it to the old intercollegiate program. He went to California for their conference and shared an arbnb with 16 kids from Harvard,USC, Stanford, Berkeley and the two from Michigan. When I asked him about it ,if he perceived any difference between the kid’s he said (most of you might of read this before), The kid’s from Standford were definitely taller ?.
They all ate pizza and laughed at all the same stupid jokes and all love augmented reality!
No question that school name and reputation can be helpful in some situations.
^The key is to be happy with your own college choice. If you feel “justified” in the choice, that’s a good thing. It means it is meeting, or has met, your needs and wishes for your college experience.
Different students will make different choices, based on a combination of needs, interests, and visions. That is why this site exists: to help everyone find a match that works for him or her. If everyone would pick the same college or rank colleges in the same order, then there would be no need for College Confidential.
Also elite college science, math and engineering degrees lead to PhD fellowships and fully funded PhD programs in the sciences. Students get better advise on how to apply, how to study for subject exams in say physics, get the best summer research positions and are funneled into the best PhD programs and then land tenure track positions in the sciences. Its harder to make those leaps from some lower ranked science programs, but possible. Its an odds game in the sciences.
You can do quite well from any reputable school. Elite schools don’t ensure you’ll do well. The commonality of those statements is success is ultimately determined by you. How well YOU do. How motivated YOU are.
That said, because of the nature of elite schools (overall smarter / top achieving kids, better resources, established and active alumni in many “top” professions, smaller classes, etc) the expectation and outcome of a great launch is high.
I view this as an ecosystem. Part of it is self selecting as you’re dealing with a group of high achievers to begin with. Couple that with a setting that EXPECTS success and has a tremendous track record of generating that success. Relationships with a certain level of school and industry forms. It’s natural. Industry has success with certain schools. They continue to fish in those ponds. A certain type of kid wants that and puts himself in that pond. And while swimming, they take advantage of the many resources available and designed to keep the ecosystem alive.
Now that same kid could definitely excel at other schools. Maybe get the same quality of education too. But on average, there is , I feel, a great divide. It would require her/him to actively seek out many of the resources that automatically flow from the above mentioned ecosystem. That’s not a bad thing. But it requires even knowing what to seek out.
As others have mentioned, the network is a key feature, not just upon graduation but throughout life. Again, the student would have to use it to benefit.
I don’t like using terms like Elite, Average, etc. as it’s all quite subjective. But to box it up for comparison purposes, a strong student kid from an elite school has certain advantages over the average. Anticipating the response from other posters who reject this thinking and site anecdotal evidence of kids doing fantastically well from local state U…I agree with you. They can and they do. Would that same kid do better or have it easier at the elite school? We’ll never know. But when a student body is built on a cross section of high achievers (which is what happens at the top schools), you tend to have higher results across the board, because you’re dealing with kids who are seeking those results from day one on campus.
“A student whose ability is in the tails (either left or right tail) of the distribution is in the wrong place”
As with most such generalizations, it is foolish to make such a definitive statement. Many very able students will thrive when they are on the extreme right tail of the distribution, not least because they will usually receive more attention from professors as a standout student. For many years, OU (ACT 23-29) admitted more NMFs than any other university. Now Alabama (ACT 23-31) is in a similar position. Are all those top students in the “wrong place”?
And at the left tail of the distribution you would find many of the athletic admits at more selective schools. Are they in the “wrong place” too?
It definitely in the eye of the beholder and some level of selection bias. I have found it very interesting lately to see how many professors teach at elites that spent ug at schools that do not have that brand. However most have PhD from elites. So it’s much about the person as the school. However there’s nothing wrong with attending an elite. However the time we spend discussing the benefits afforded the 350 non hooked Harvard students by gender for each class is truly remarkable. If you get into an elite and it’s financially responsible, no reason not to go if you like it at all.
IMO this is a great way to look at schools. If, in your honest assessment of the college experience, your student has received is a great education (with all that entails) then you can say you’ve made made a good decision and investment. Read through all the negative postings on CC - it you have avoided those and your student is happy - so should you be happy.
Yes. If there weren’t financial incentives, many of these students wouldn’t likely to have gone to those schools. They aren’t academic matches.
Yes, many of them would likely struggle.
@privatebanker makes the salient point “If you get into an elite and it’s financially responsible, no reason not to go if you like it at all.”
That kind of nets it out. There are advantages, so if you get in, and you can afford it, and you like it, why wouldn’t you go? But it’s not the end of the world if you don’t.
The number-one reason to go to an “elite” school is the freedom to major in anything that strikes your fancy without regard to future career opportunities. You can put all your intellectual energy into becoming a broadly educated citizen of the world without worrying about whether a particular course will help you qualify for a job. Many students crave that opportunity. The life of the mind.
Lots of reasons here, bit I do think that @Coloradomama summed it up the best.
That argument may apply better to appointed jobs like judges. An elected senator may get better campaign marketing from being a graduate of the same state flagship, rather than being seen as a carpetbagger or elitist from some elitist college.
Unfortunately this is a very naive statement and doesn’t represent reality. Take my point of elite colleges filled with the top 10% of all high school graduates such as Harvard with 93% of the freshman had 3.75 GPA or better and ACT middle range of 33-35 and contrast that with a popular merit school for higher stat kids looking for a free ride, University of Alabama - Huntsville where 25% of the students have a HS GPA between 2.50 - 3.50 and ACT scores of 25-31.
Which college throughout the whole student body do you think has the more academically focused, intelligent and smart group of classmates to have in-depth intellectual discussions, challenging each other, and doing group assignments and labs? Any guesses here?
I attended my state flagship for my MBA. I was at the top of my class. I applied to a local company and the rejection letter stated “we don’t recruit from your school.” Wouldn’t even look at my resume and transcript.
I think it really depends on your major, goals, etc.