What is the appeal of "elite" schools?

Applying to College
1

Other then bragging rights and what not whats the benefit? I used to have a list of 10 or so schools, most would’ve been considered “elite” or worse case “excellent”, and now I’m not applying to any. Simply because it’s just not worth the stress and money, when I can go to my state flagship with merit aid. So back to my question why do people want to spend 70k so badly for an education at one of these “elite” schools? The only reason I can see is the “network”, but wouldn’t graduating near top of your undergrad class with no debt result in a much better “network”?

This is a genuine question, I’m curious to why people want to go to these schools (top 50).

2

For internship & career opportunities.

3

The “network” probably refers to one or more of these things:

  1. Getting recruited by the most college-elitist employers (typical examples being management consulting and Wall Street), though some people believe that many kinds of employers are more college-elitist than they actually are.
  2. Because so many scions of wealth and "important people" (politicians, CEOs, other famous people) attend such schools (often based on development and legacy preferences in admissions), some believe that being able to have social contact with such people will be beneficial career-wise.
4

But can’t anyone hustle there way into an internship? Also aren’t most state schools well connected with business in the area which can result in very high powered internships as the years progress?

5

Depends upon your targeted career. Also, use of the word “hustle” doesn’t reflect the proper attitude, in my opinion.

6

Because there is social capital in elite universities. 30 years after graduating, and 25 years after I stopped practicing law, where I went to law school still impresses people and to some extent opens doors.

7

The appeal of “elite” colleges have similar traits:

  • the student body will be very smart and talented, top to bottom from all over the world,
  • the faculty will many times be the “best in class” in their field,
  • the college has a noticeable tract record of graduating top students and will be highly sought after by employers.
  • the expectations of the student is accelerated both inside and outside of the classroom,
  • top colleges frequently have smaller classes conducive to better discussions and faculty that really know and engage with their students.
  • access to better research and internships in addition to special programs (e.g. Duke Engage),
  • in general, the student body is driven and has the work ethic to succeed. Typically, they comprise of 90% or more of the top 10% of HS students.
  • big endowments mean money for new building, facilities, labs, attracting top faculty and administrators,
  • guest speakers seek out these elite colleges for speaking engagements and presentations. If you are a world leader, you like going to places like Harvard to speak and interact with these students,
  • probably the most important aspect of an “elite” esucation is that it stays with you the rest of your life.

Can you be successful without an elite education, yes of course but for top students an elite education is invaluable to their professional and personal growth.

8

It opens future doors.

9

Step back from not being able to afford and/or win the admitting lottery. If you could afford pay any price to attend college, would you choose one of those 10 schools on your list? The reason the schools are on your list is because you perceive some extra value in them.

That aside, the reason “people want to spend 70k so badly for an education at one of these elite schools” is, at least partially, because they can afford to. The idea of you or I writing a check for $70K every year for college is a joke. Well, at least for me. But for some families, $70K is like $4K to us. If they can afford it and they want it, why shouldn’t they pay for it? No matter the reasons they may have.

I think the real question you want to ask is, “Can I succeed whether I attend State Flagship just as well as I could if I attended the “elite” school I can’t afford and/or can’t get admitted to?” The answer is absolutely.

10

It’s a really good question. There’s a lot to unpack. To me, it’s a combination of truth, myth, branding and human nature to fight for limited resources as part of our human make up.

Reality. Smart students. Serious academic approach. Nice facilities. Excellent resources. Connections. Traditions. Really good financial aid and meets full need. Usually need blind. They have really high graduation rates. They have great alumni associations.

Myth. Every professor is a Nobel laureate. Look up the professors and many went to schools outside of HPYSM. That other schools don’t have really really smart students too. Access to fields only available at elite schools. (The top ten schools in IB account for 30 percent of placements so obviously the rest come from outside this group). Social currency and connectivity. It’s partly true but does knowing Sasha OBama really help you in life and how many friends can she have as an example, interesting sure but economically doubtful.

Branding and human nature. This is an important component. There is a lifetime of physic income derived from the pleasure you derive from the inevitable question, “where did you go to school”. It makes you feel proud, and expresses an immediate indication of intelligence and accomplishment to the world. It’s a powerful drug. It’s a tiny fraction of the world who can say this and it’s impressive at the human level. It also has this effect with interviewers, co-workers and in-laws, lol.

Branding. Why do people buy mansions, Channel hand bags and Mercedes when utility and quality of alternatives are available. Also the elite schools also have deep and long histories of excellence. They e produced leaders past and present. Parents want that for their children if available.

All things being equal if you can get in and the finances work. I say go for it. However. Over time as the percentage of students at these schools fall as a whole with the increase of total students, it will change and it already is to a degree. Accomplished and well known grads of other schools will be successful and become leaders. The brand advantage will narrow.

Good luck and don’t spend a whole lot of time mired in this debate. Put your head down and study. It’s always about the individual much more than the school as a general rule.

1 Like
11

For the same reason why people pay $250+ to play golf at Pelican Resort than $40 at a local course. I think any college that best serves your goal and meets your needs is elite. For me personally, I only think of around 7 to 10 colleges as elite overall, even though there are many non-elite colleges with elite departments. I also associate less than 5% admission rate for unhooked applicants with the word elite.

12

My definition of elite is much wider than websensations. Maybe on CC that’s a good definition but then it’s defining the elite of the elite. When looking at the broad population of the USA and the world. Going to college is a privilege. Going to a top 50 USA school is infinitesimal compared to the global statistics. It is a fraction of the us youth and high school populations. It’s elite whether we call it that here or not.

13

Defining “elite” is a subjective matter.

In my opinion, there are at least 35 elite National Universities and an equal number of elite LACs.

Schools such as Tufts & Georgia Tech and Boston College are clearly elite to me just as are Skidmore College, Mount Holyoke College, Kenyon College & Bucknell University, yet none are ranked higher than #25 by US News & none have an acceptance rate lower than lower than 12%. Williams College–probably the most elite LAC in the country–has a very generous acceptance rate especially so for ED applicants.

In short, trying to define “elite” simply as any school accepting less than 5% of all applicants is a bit shortsighted in my view.

14

I agree that the definition of “elite” is very subjective and also major/career dependent.

D and I both grew up in the NE and went to an Ivy (he for grad school as well). When we first started this process with our D, her list was “elite” heavy - Cornell, CMU, JHU, Notre Dame, Northwestern, etc…

D was way more impressed with the engineering programs at Michigan, Purdue, UMD CP and their facilities, project teams, and the overall vibe. She hated the “elite” vibe that some of these schools gave off and felt that she didn’t fit in at all there even though she had the academic chops to be in the ballpark. She wanted the schools where the focus was on career readiness, hands on learning, and where students were down to earth. It was surprising to us to learn that GT and Purdue are the two schools that have the most companies on campus for recruiting events. Last year 1,000 companies came to Purdue to recruit for internships, co-ops, and full time work.

Purdue and Cornell are tied in the rankings for their undergrad engineering program in her major. She worked in her field this summer at an internship, landed her co-op January of her freshman year, is TA/mentoring this year, and has guaranteed research. There is absolutely nothing less about her Purdue engineering education.

As an aside, she did some shadowing at one of the NASA facilities before college. When she was asked to introduce herself at a senior level meeting and was asked where she was going to college, half the team yelled “Boiler Up”. There are no issues with strong alumni connections.

All that said, if D wanted to go into IB, we would have had a different conversation around schools…

15

Recommend you do a search on this topic here on this site. Its been discussed many, many times here with good discussions on both sides.

16

You will need to set your own priorities, based on what you want from your college experience. Of course, a student can get a good education at either a more elite or less elite college, because the individual will shape his/her own experience based on attitude and initiative (one could seek out the best opportunities and professors and the smartest peers, and delve deeper into intellectual interests, even at a less “elite” college).

For my son, he and we both wanted an elite college experience for him. Our reasons had little to do with the “post” college aspects that many replies on this thread have emphasized. It was all about the four year experience itself.

Before we went on our first college tour, my son had joked, “I want to go to a college where I’m the dumbest person in the whole school.” He didn’t mean that literally; what he meant was that he wanted to be surrounded by brilliant peers who would provide stimulating conversations. What he needed for college was a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity to immerse himself for four years in “the life of the mind,” exploring ideas in class discussions, dorms, and dining halls, with his peers and professors.

He is SO glad he is at Williams, although we do think he would have thrived anywhere he went (for the reasons I named in the top paragraph). He compares his education to that of some of his high school friends, and his is right for him:

  1. One of his friends at one of our state universities (but not one of the three most competitive of our state’s colleges) took a course with the same title and intended content that my son was taking at the same time. My son read primary sources; his friend read a secondary source discussing the primary sources my son read. My son wrote several essays and got feedback on them along the way from the professor; his friend took exams which were partly multiple-choice. My son’s class discussed and debated the issues raised by the content (which it was assumed they had read); his friend sat in lectures that he described as mostly a waste of time because the professor was just summarizing the assigned reading (so some kids skipped class and some skipped the reading). When the student body average capability and motivation are lower, it may be that the professors provide a less challenging education.
  2. Another one of his friends had basically the same grades and scores as my son in high school, but chose to attend a less elite private college that gave him a completely free education (a four-year merit scholarship covering tuition, room and board, and equipment for his major). He is an optimistic kid and grateful for the free education, but when my son talked about some of the learning he was enjoying at college and said he had gotten “so much smarter” since starting at Williams, his friend said wistfully, “I think I may be getting dumber!” He said his classes are not so stimulating, and his peers don’t as often participate in the types of out-of-classroom intellectual conversations that he and my son enjoy having together and that are the norm at elite colleges.

Do I think that my son’s friend can do as well in his future endeavors as my son will? Sure. I think individuals, not college names, determine their futures. Yes, my kid may have some doors open more easily for him because of the school’s reputation and connections. But that is not what mattered to him as much as enjoying four years of intellectual exploration with like-minded peers.

Virtually everyone at his college reads for fun, cares about learning, studies for hours every day, and likes to talk about ideas. At less elite colleges, those students certainly exist but are harder to find… and professors shape their classes based on the students with whom they work.

17

Let’s not forget that the primary purpose to go to a college is education. The quality of college education aren’t the same among all colleges. Even within the same college, different students will benefit differently. A student whose ability is in the tails (either left or right tail) of the distribution is in the wrong place. Segregation by abilities is a virtue, not a defect. Academic fit, not prestige, should be the primary objective.

18

And my daughter took calc at her not top ranked college and used the same book as her cousin at a much higher ranked school. I don’t think her learning experience would have been more stimulating at an Ivy league school or at an LAC.

She wouldn’t have enjoyed discussing things over and over, from primary sources or secondary ones. She did not like group projects so all this collaborating isn’t for everyone. And I think she’s as smart as anyone else, just doesn’t like discussing it all the time.

My other child, who didn’t have the grades or scores to get into an elite school (or the money to pay for one), IS what I’d consider an intellectual. She loves to read for pleasure, loves to discuss art and religion and history and all the ways they interact. She just had to do that at a public, non-elite school, and she had no trouble finding other students to do that with, or professors who had gone to Ivy or other elite schools to lead them in their discussions.

19

For most people, there are some benefits going to a school with great recognition. It depends upon the school and the person, as a bad mismatch could wipe out any such benefit. I know many young people who burned and crashed from such schools and managed to do just fine going back to a different type school. But , yes, reputation and recognition has its perks.

Usually, all things equal, a person will choose the school with the better name recognition or reputation. Unless there is something other schools offer that those schools do not have that the student wants, why not take that extra perk of a well known school?

The question comes down to how much it’s worth to you. I know parents who’ll break the bank to pay for Harvard. How about Hartwick over local state SUNY? Is it worth the more than doubleprice? Is NYU tuition worth borrowing vs CUNY? That’s the crux of the question most of the time.

There are times the difference in ratings and recognition doesn’t make the difference. Heck, I have two kids who turned down Ivy. They really did not like the school. My youngest wasn’t as keen on Notre Dame , a holy grail school in his cried, preferring a number of less venerable names and lower rankings. So it’s not an exact relationship between prestige and auto choose. But over all, those ratings, name recognition plays some role. It’s that something you get thrown in there extra— what’s worth to you?

20

Re: #6

These are not necessarily unique to elite universities. For example:

For most high schools, almost any college will be an “upgrade” in terms of peer group academic ability and motivation compared to high school.

The PhD graduate pool in many subjects is so deep that even a relatively unknown regional university can pick top end faculty from it.

Perhaps for LACs (“top” or not), but courses in popular majors like CS and economics may be quite large, even at “top” universities (e.g. Stanford CS 106A, Harvard CS 50) (of course, some LACs which try to hold the line on class size have to ration seats in popular courses, e.g. Swarthmore CS).