@Happytimes2001 I’ve got the stats if you want to see it. You are the one speculating. I attended 2 top 5 schools and don’t fetishize Harvard or any other elite school that a few CC posters seem to do. None of my classmates hold the sort of reverence that you espouse. There are brilliant students all over. Top scholars don’t necessarily make for top educators. My undergrad profs (LAC) were heads and shoulders above the rock star scholars I took classes from in grad school and my classmates would overwhelmingly agree. I wonder if you actually attended an elite school. That mystique you enshrine them in sounds like one who did not attend.
I’ll share a little anecdote. My D did a program at a certain elite school. With her acceptance letter came a condescending note from the admissions director that he expected she’d be behind the others and have to work hard to catch up based on the perceived strength of their courses versus her flagship’s courses. Let’s just say my D was not impressed with the other students at all. She was the most advanced student and even had to be placed in a private tutorial for one of the courses. She felt the other students held her back in the others.
The elite snobbery on this board is a total turn off to me and many. And ironically, I didn’t see anything like it when I was in school.
What make any place special are its people. Schools are no different. What makes a school “elite”, however it’s defined, are its students and professors. There’re generally higher concentrations, but not necessarily higher absolute numbers, of “elite” students and professors at so-called “elite” schools. Because of the higher concentrations, these schools can offer more advanced versions of courses, faster paces, more in-depth discussions, higher levels of interactions, etc. They may also offer more career opportunities as some higher-paying employers only target certain schools because they feel, correctly or not, there’s the need to utilize their limited human resources more efficiently. There’re always exceptions, of course. Some less “elite” schools, or some departments with such schools, may deliver the same benefits.
@itsgettingreal17 You can look at it as snobbery. I prefer a difference of opinion. Many people on CC have many opinions. Some perceive theirs are the only ones out there. They are not.
When I see citations regarding me/my son or daughter experienced this or that applied to whole groups, I naturally think data set of one does not equal a true formula. Maybe your daughter’s experience is unique. Maybe she’s stellar, that’s great but certainly isn’t going to create reality from a set of one data point.
I do think that many folks who are priced out of the market feel that the elites are somehow worse than those who can scrape the $$ together. It’s not a fair game. Never has been. Some get in, some don’t. Pretending that some state school is equal to a tippity top is fine if that’s the way you perceive things. I’m pragmatic and have seen results from an excellent top education ( mine and others). You don’t have to believe it, I’m not trying to convince anyone just sharing general information about why folks seeks it out and some of the potential benefits. If these schools were the same as others, why would don’t more people apply to the “statistically equal” state schools? Hmm.
I have seen many on this board equate schools which are not equal ( at all). There’s a web page I saw once that has links with schools linking to each other on the basis of similar education. Many second tier schools link to top tier schools but not vice versa. For the very top schools, Ivies, Stanford, MIT etc, there are about three times the number of schools that put themselves in the same category. Yet, the top schools only perceive a handful. So people will always compare things.
There are a lot of people on CC also who are big fans of a particular school. I often don’t agree with them but I’m sure they have a basis for thinking as they do.
I don’t think it’s unreasonable to think that many graduates of these top universities do not think these schools are equal either. I certainly don’t. Although I have heard many off-putting remarks about the schools I attended, I don’t take them to heart.
It’s nice your daughter was so far ahead in class that she had to be tutored. Seems like she’d be a good fit for Oxford. But then again, maybe Oxford stats are well below her school.
Another one-person data point: My D has had two summer-long internships and is now a college graduate working in a professional job. Not in banking or consulting. Nobody in her cohort at any of the three companies went to any school below top 30 universities or top 10 LACs, give or take. She never came across anyone who went to, say, Elon, Hillsdale, Ursinus, Holy Cross, University of Minnesota/Connecticut/Delaware/Maryland/Utah. All of these are great colleges/universities. Maybe she’ll come across grads from these institutions later in her career.
^ My D interned for a top 3 MC firm and met undergrads from all over. The MBA students were however more concentrated at the elite business schools (not surprising). IB - students are from all over.
OK, I’ll admit, I tend to be an elitest snob :lol: , but if we’re sharing one person data points, then here’s one.
A family friend attended a mid tier UC. This family friend has won many prestigious national and international awards already and has been mentioned to be on a path towards a Nobel Prize. There’s always “outliers.”
“There’re generally higher concentrations, but not necessarily higher absolute numbers, of “elite” students and professors at so-called “elite” schools. Because of the higher concentrations, these schools can offer more advanced versions of courses, faster paces, more in-depth discussions, higher levels of interactions, etc.“
This makes no sense. A college with more students will put on more sections of a course. If there are sufficient absolute numbers of “elite” students then most colleges will offer Honors sections to accommodate those students. That’s the entire rationale for an Honors College at a large (usually state) university.
A smaller “elite” LAC may only be able to offer one version of a particular course. Will it be more advanced than the baseline course at a large state university? Quite possibly. Will it be more advanced than the Honors course for the top students at a large state university? That’s unlikely if they have to serve all students doing that subject, even if their average ability is high.
@sushiritto They used to have an ad running on television that showed a Nobel prize laureate who taught at our Big State U. That’s great. Wonder how his pay compares to teaching elsewhere? @brantly Wow, that’s surprising. I would imagine more of a mix of graduates.
@Happytimes2001 FWIW, our family friend does his/her work in medicine or some STEM field, where he/she founded a company that went public and he/she subsequently became rich!
@sushiritto That’s great. It’s hard taking a company public, lots of sleepless nights and uncertainty. I love the entrepreneurial spirit. Hope S/he wins a nobel. Got to love those outliers!! They keep so many employed in interesting fields.
Name an honors college which offers a course that’s more advanced, or at the same level as, one from, say, Caltech? There may be one or two students at an honors college who can perform close to the same level, but an entire class?
Name a school, elite or otherwise, where the baseline level of course rigor is equal to that of Caltech or Harvey Mudd.
Caltech and Harvey Mudd are outliers in academic rigor even among elite schools. Regarding honors options, note that even elite schools can have them to accommodate varying levels of ability (probably the biggest hook students at the low end). For example, Harvard offers frosh math ranging from M (like calculus AB with review of precalculus), 1 (regular calculus), 21 (regular multivariable calculus, linear algebra, differential equations), 23 (honors), 25 (higher honors), 55 (highest honors).
Caltech is not an outlier for the purpose of this illustration: colleges have to design courses to suit their student bodies. The difference is perhaps most dramatic with Caltech, and that’s why I’ve chosen it as the example.
Since people are talking about Caltech and Math. Here is an interesting fact. Out of the 20 current faculty, 4 did their undergrad in the US. The schools represented are Harvard, Columbia, Rice and Case Western. Here is a disappointing fact. Only 2 of the 20 are woman.
For HMC, the US undergraduate schools are Carnegie-Mellon University, MIT, Tulane University, Cornell University, Shimer College , University of Texas, , Bard College, Spelman College, and Harvey Mudd
The only undergrad schools that produced more than one current faculty at Caltech or HMC is Peking University and Moscow Institute of Physics and Technology. Both have two.
I think the new Forbes rankings that came out last week is worthwhile for a look. This combines LACs and R1 universities. Many consider it to be more representative in the real world than the new USNWR methodologies. And it’s good to include both types of schools.
To the previous post, Tufts Michigan and BC are certainly very highly ranked. All in the top 40. And some between that level and 100 are elite in the real world. Emory Vassar Barnard. Wake Hamilton Haverford Georgia Tech UNC etc. as examples.
I would say 1 thru 50 and more are elite and some beyond that. If it were evenly divided into lacs and unis that’s 25 each.
So it depends on each student, each family and no two situations are alike.
I still think that if you can get into an elite school, can afford it and love the school. There’s zero reason not to attend. If you can’t afford it or need the money for med school etc then it’s less clear. There is no right or wrong answer. And few, if any, will come to CC and say they made an error. So we simply support our own selection. That’s why these threads always follow down the same path.
No one will ever know if they made the right or wrong decision because the alternative path is always an unknown.
This is probably a reflection of the composition of PhD students in STEM. Majority of students in most PhD programs in STEM are foreign born these days. The US students who choose to remain in academia are even fewer.
I do think that you can (and should) access every big decision that you make (college selections included). You will not know what could have been but you do know what has been and that may improve or at least influence future decisions. We learned quite a bit with S and in a few years we make the same trip with D. Hopefully what we’ve learned will help her.
I too find the composition of the graduate ranks interesting along several dimensions. Who knows?
