What is the High school's role in admission? Lower tier high schools advantaged or disadvantaged?

Applying to College
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Hello, I am from a very small high school in rural IL. As far as I know, my high school has never sent anyone to Harvard, Yale, Princeton, MIT, Stanford (maybe before it was crazy competitive), Columbia, and other top schools.

Last year we had a student that was admitted to brown, probably the best student our school has seen in a while. This year our school made a huge deal about one of our student getting accepted to the US military academy.

I joke about my school with my friends because of its extremely easy course load(at least in my eyes). While speaking to a newly hired teacher (very young, strait out of college, fairly smart guy) he was shocked at the level of rigor (low level of rigor)

Now, past the details, here is the point. What effect does this have on admissions (top tier admissions that is, less than 20% admit rates)? I, for example, have taken, or will take, 2 AP calc classes outside the schools curriculum. Our school does not offer AP classes. I am a relatively competitive applicant for top schools as far as numbers go (34 act 4 gpa uw) ,but my course load will undoubtedly be weaker than other competitive applicants.

I have filled up my schedule with the most competitive classes realistically available to me ( without dishing out boatloads of money which my parents don’t necessarily want to pay). Will colleges just see it as a weakness that I have not taken as competitive courses as the other applicants, or will they see strong passion to learn and thirst for rigor outside the school’s basic curriculum.
All responses and insights are very much appreciated, thanks.

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“Will colleges just see it as a weakness that I have not taken as competitive courses as the other applicants”
NO. You are judged based on the context of your school.

“Or will they see strong passion to learn and thirst for rigor outside the school’s basic curriculum.”
YES. there are many ways to demonstrate that passion, BOTH within and outside of the classroom.

there are free online classes you can take through Khan Academy.
BUT, and this is important- 90-95% OF ALL APPLICANTS TO TOP TIER COLLEGES ARE REJECTED. Through NO fault of their own.
So what you need to do is NOT focus on getting into an “IVY” or Ivy comparable college.
You’ll need to find colleges that you can afford AND push you to excel. There are thousands of colleges in the US where you can shine!!
Start here-
http://automaticfulltuition.yolasite.com/
http://competitivefulltuition.yolasite.com/

for a list of colleges that will cost you little and in some cases pay YOU to go to their college, based on your ACT score and GPA.
CAST a WIDE net.

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@menloparkmom Sure, of course IVY’s are not what I am FOCUSING on, but are the subject of many of my questions because is seems the whole admission process is just one big enigma. Thanks for the resources, looking at the sites now.

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Get your LoR writers to describe the “passion to learn and thirst for rigor outside the school’s basic curriculum.” If they aren’t used to doing this for top tier schools, do some discreet digging for advice. Granted, this example is MIT, but you can google “letters of recommendation tips” or somesuch. http://mitadmissions.org/apply/prepare/writingrecs

What the top tiers will want is not just that you mastered your school, but that you can master theirs and have the resilience, know how to self advocate. ECs should include some relevant to your possible major. It will also help to have some that aren’t just at school and that involve responsibilities (not just that take random hours here and there and give some title.)

And really read up on what the targets value and look for. And take a look at the common app and supplements, so you have an idea how you will be asked to present yourself.

MPMom s right to cast a wide net.

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@lookingforward Thank you, Truthfully,I have spent too much time on reaches in proportion to targets. I will definitely be showing that webpage to my LOR writers

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showing those webpages to your LOR writers is not where you should start. How about to your college counselor?
the reality is you , your parents and College counselor will need to do the research about colleges- we CAN help- to find matches and vastly MORE important and essential- SAFETIES where you have a very good chance of acceptance , CAN afford AND would like to go to.

so give us some ideas about what you are interested in, what captures your attention.
and you NEED to have the $$ talk with your parents BEFORE you send in any applications- what can they actually afford to spend to send you to college.
All colleges have NPC’s- net price calculators- which will give you an idea about how much the COLLEGE says it will cost you to attend, after Financial aid is applied.
What you need to know is their EFC- "estimated Family contrubution, whcih is what THEY want your family to pay, may NOT be what they can actually afford. Hence the NEED to have the MONEY talk soon with your family, no matter how hard it many be. Finncial aid applications cant be completed without their financial information. And it has to jive with the tax returns sent to the IRS .
.
there is NO use applying to a college that your parents simply CANT afford to send you.
There are experts on the CC financial forums- mom2collegekids is THE guru- who can give you accurate, wise advise about financial aid.

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@menloparkmom Well, of course, everything you said there is correct. Net price calcs are the first thing I do when looking at a college, I talked to my parents about what they can contribute ages ago, and I’m currently in the active search for safety and match schools. Who said showing that page to my Writers would be the start? I think most people on this forum know that if they are starting there they are missing the much more important parts of the application process. Many of my top choices have tremendous need based financial aid policies. Anyway, my counselor and I used to talk all the time while school was in. Coming from a small school has the advantage of getting really good time with the guidance counselor.
Thanks for the heads up though. That information is must know for any college goer.

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“Many of my top choices have tremendous need based financial aid policies. "
As dofthe most selective colleges in the country.
But they are the hardest to get into.
And every April there are dozens of plaintive posts from seniors who were rejected by all of their [ affordable] reaches and ALL of the colleges that accepted them are unaffordable. Dont be one of those students.
Put your “top choices” in your wish file and concentrate on finding” realistic " acceptances - i.e, safeties and matches.
A SAFETY is a college where your stats put you above the 75% of enrolled freshman, has higher than a 40% acceptance rate AND is a college that you can afford to go to either because of guaranteed merit scholarships or great FA that does not saddle your family with loans .

If you get into one of your “top choices” then treat that as icing on the cake.

Do you know about Common Data Sets?
they are an invaluable tool for really learning what importance colleges place on different admissions factors- standardized tests,grades, expressions of interests, EC’s , LOR’s, etc, etc.
All have the same questions and all colleges have to file them with the goverment, but some are harder to find online than others.
Here is an example of what they look like-
http://ucomm.stanford.edu/cds/2015

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@menloparkmom You make a good point on the concept with high reaches. A harsh realization for me at first.
Yes, I use common data sets. They are usually what I check after I have found a school that are have a certain amount of interest in ( after calcs programs classes etc ). It is actually very interesting to see how certain schools weigh different aspects of an application.
For example, UChicago only has 1 part of an application marked “very important” (if I remember correctly) and that is essay. So, a researched applicant would know to put just a little bit extra love(effort, whatever) in their UChicago essay.

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FYI
Letters of recommendation: An unfair part of college admissions
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/grade-point/wp/2016/03/03/letters-of-recommendation-an-unfair-part-of-college-admissions/

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@ManaManaWegi yes, your app is submitted with a school profile that will show how rigorous your courses have been compared to other students, and you are not supposed to be disadvantaged if your school offers no APs. You can self-study APs and take the tests, so that is worth considering, BUT only if you are actually interested in them and not just producing a laundry list of APs. My kid self studied AP psych, our school didn’t offer it, and she thinks she will major in it. She showed clear interest in it. Be aware that some APs are regarded as more/ less difficult than others to self study for. There is a forum on this site devoted to testing and you can find a lot of info about self studying. I actually think that as your school has no APs, you might benefit from self-studying, as I think it will show a willingness to push yourself. Some CCers might disagree with this. And of course, if you do self-study, it can’t be at the expense of schoolwork or meaningful ECs.

Your original question about the role the HS itself plays in admissions is a good one. If your school has rarely sent any kids to top colleges, that isn’t likely to change soon, IMO. I do actually think that it isn’t advantageous to be at a HS with very few higher level courses, (again, some CCers will disagree, no doubt), and you can see why: the work level at college, and top colleges in particular, is going to be tough. Kids who do APs have shown they can do the work, which is why top colleges like to see a rigorous course load, within reason. I would be interested to know what percentage of admitted students to top colleges come from schools that offer no AP or IB programs.

I am concerned about your inability to find match and safety schools, because that is most likely where you will end up. You need to devote the most effort to learning about the schools you can get into, not about the ones you can’t or aren’t likely to get into. Once you start looking you will find great things to like about all kinds of colleges. Please don’t leave it too late to start researching this, becasue the bulk of your apps need to be to match and safety schools.

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@lindagaf thanks for the reply, very interesting topics, I’d love to have a discussion with a few more people about the topic or HS role in admissions.
As far as matches and safeties go, what should search criteria be? There is of course location, distance from home, offered majors, programs, groups etc. But, if I just searched with those criteria, there would certainly be enough colleges to fill several application lists. How do I distinguish these schools? Are national ranking relevant in that context to identify rigor level, specific program/dept quality. What are other ways to judge one institutions quality over another.
I would prefer not to base my college choices on “the vibe” I get from colleges. I really want it based on facts and evidence.
So, are their certain mediums I should be using to look for colleges more efficiently? Are their any interesting resources that you could link me to that would help me in the search for schools that fit me?
Thanks for the response, again.

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We vetted the actual departments, the profs, what their own research interests are, as related to D1’s, and the range of courses. At some colleges, eg, a topic of interest to her was taught by a non-specialist. Or combined with something else, to fill seats. She also knew she wanted an academically competitive environment, where she would need to stay on her toes. Often, we cite this big fish/little pond vs little fish/big pond question.

Facts and evidence can be iffy- this will be your experience. Some kids who shine at a particular school win more teacher attention, research opps, responsibilities, etc, and that’s their springboard. There’s a lot of talk on CC about how the elites encourage networking, which somehow guarantees a bright future. But it really boils down to your own relationships with profs and how you use what’s available to you. Not whether you sit in the class of a well known name .

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There are many different rankings. Payscale ranks, Forbes has various rankings, as does the Economist, the government, and of course USNWR. Rankings can vary wildly. For the college my kid is going to, it is ranked something like 90 in one rankings list for ROI, and 1000 on a different list.

I personally think you must consider vibe. Vibe is just another way of saying “fit.” If you are looking at selective colleges that practice holistic admissions, they are of course looking at your app, but when so many candidates have great stats, it is really about fit. They want to admit people that they feel will fit in at their school. Even your likely match schools, unless they are publics that admit solely based on grades and test scores, are going to deny kids that they don’t think fit in with their ethos. (Re publics, the essay can be very important too. For highly selective publics, given two equal candidates, they will choose the one with the better essay, most likely.) This is why more and more colleges that some regard as safeties are denying kids with very high grades and test scores. They don’t want to admit kids they think are not really interested in them.

Re vibe, let’s say you apply to Geogetown, a top college. It’s known to be more conservative than, say, Tufts. Do you really want to end up spending four years with a bunch of liberals/conservatives? This is yet another reason why so many amazing applicants get shut out of top universities. Colleges can usually tell when people are just applying for the sake of prestige.

Do you want a big college with lots of rah rah football and school spirit? Do you want a college with very little of that? Lots of Greek life, or hardly any? Very intellectual, or not? This is why just using data isn’t really a great way to narrow down your list. A college is not just a bunch of buildings. A college IS the students.

I recommend the websites college Niche and college data. (Can’t link them, CC will block them.) Both different, but good resources for the data you want, and for understanding what is important to the students at any given college. I highly recommend you read the Student Stories on college data, as there are so many insightful pearls of wisdom from the kids who have been there. I would say this site, and the two I mentioned, were absolutely critical in navigating the whole process.

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@lindagaf Very helpful! Very important points. Some of the things you mentioned I forget about sometimes. I forget that I will actually be spending 4 years of my life wherever I go! Vibe will most certainly be the way I narrow my list.

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@lookingforward Thanks. CC has really been very helpful. It has almost made the college search and application process seem fun.

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@ManaManaWegi , thanks. This is what I most like about CC. Giving advice and knowing that a student is taking it in is gratifying, and no doubt you will read lots more great advice as you navigate your way through the process. Good luck!

P.S. Re your original question, yes, there are feeder shcools to certain universities. Many HSs have established relationships with particular colleges and that college will routinely take kids from that HS. This is well-established and not speculative. A well-known LAC, only 30 minutes from us, takes lots of kids from our school and gives them great merit aid. Our superintendent went to many Top 30 colleges on a “promo tour” a couple of years ago, and we now have more kids than ever getting into top colleges. However, there is something to be said for a strong candidate applying to a top school that has never accepted a candidate from that school or area before, and this can sometimes work in your favor. So yes, being in certain HSs can help, no doubt, but being from a rural school isn’t always a disadvantage.

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And you seem both bright and engaged in this at a level we like to see. Good going.

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OP, It would help us help you if you tell us if you want to go to college far from home or not, if you have given any thoughts as to college major, and some of the other factors that Lindagaf mentioned- big schools-10000 +UG’s or small schools, LAC which serve only UG’s or Universities, where there are opportunities for UG’s to take grad school level courses, Warm weather schools or schools that experience all 4 seasons, schools with an overall more intense, intellectual vibe, i.e U of Chicago , Reed, or Swarthmore, or more “typical” rah- rah college experiences , Schools in big cities vers more rural locations etc, etc.
Any kind of filter can help you narrow down your list of possible colleges to apply to .
When my DS was investigating where to apply I bought a copy of Ruggs Recommendations, which I had seen on his college counselors desk.
We used it to find schools based on the strengths of the majors offered, as my son , a top student with great standardized test scores, was interested in colleges with both strong Geology and music programs.
The index of Ruggs reports lists colleges by major and includes the SAT scores of students enrolled.
WE found that book to be a great additional source of information.
the Friske guide, Colleges that change Lives and a few others were also helpful.

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@menloparkmom Ok, sure, I have pretty strong opinions on all of those issues.

I have a preference to stay close ( for my mom) however this preference is overridden in a situation between a reach and a match, and maybe between a low match vs high match decision(mom would understand in that situation). For example, If I were accepted to UChicago and MIT, though I would prefer the surrounding area of MIT (and some would argue it is more prestigious) I would certainly choose UChicago first because it is in state. I intend to be a math (general) major, so I look for a strong and enthusiastic math dept., but I also require music programs such as a concert band and orchestra. I would prefer a smaller undergraduate class and am not apposed to attending a UG only school. However, this is not a make or break preference, I would not hate to go to a larger school. I truly despise constant warm weather ( probs minority here ) I must experience all 4 seasons or else I will most likely hate my life. I’d prefer a more academic centered school, without the “rah-rah” of college. Similarly, I would prefer a school that has, at least, limited care for athletics, as I really don’t care. The smaller the city the better generally. Though extremely rural towns can get boring, not many upper tier colleges are in overly rural towns. I just generally want to avoid a huge city.

To sum up, I will divide my filters by level of importance.

Considered, but low priority: Size of class (preferably smaller), Rah-Rah level (preferably less) Substance free housing/ Reasonable drug safety ( My mother wants this, but I’m convinced I can handle myself to stay substance free)

Reasonable importance: Location(close to home is preferred, in IL), Strong college town, Size of city/town ( pretty much anything but a large city or an overly rural town)

Very important: weather (4 seasons, prefer to lean to the colder side, Is it silly to have this here?) Strong class( I prefer peers who are just as smart or smarter than I, I learn the most this way, I would not be satisfied In a school where I was WAY above average.) Strong research opportunities in mathematics, Academics must be the university’s first priority

Must have: Strong Mathematics Dept./program, Music groups/opportunities(concert band and orchestra, (I guess it doesn’t have to be DIRECTLY related to the college, but I could not go without playing in a music group), Coed ( I simply would not go to a single gender school)

There might be some I’m forgetting, but the dog is barking and I want to post this now. :stuck_out_tongue: