<p>^ I’m equally confused, bovertine. I wish someone would translate for me what POIH is trying to say, because I am thoroughly confused at this point.</p>
<p>marite - I don’t disagree with what you said.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>But I wonder Harvard looks harder into public schools than into established private prep schools that have good counselors to present the students?</p>
<p>Menlo School:
Stanford: 52
UCB: 72
UCLA: 56</p>
<p>Harker School:
Stanford: 31
UCB: 184
UCLA: 151</p>
<p>“But the emphasis on the Menlo numbers was to show that 50% of the group of Stanford acceptances are not “Ivy-Caliber” applicant.”</p>
<p>Oh, I see. The fact that a much HIGHER percentage of Menlo students WERE accepted at Stanford AND OTHER IVY’S than Harker has NOTHING TO DO with them being ACADEMICALLY QUALIFIED for acceptance? yeah right…
POIH, what you DON’T want to acknowledge, it seems, is that there are MANY really smart students at Menlo. Can you guess why? THEIR PARENTS ARE SMART TOO!. Their parents, many of whom who are brilliant entrepreneurs in Silicon Valley, either went to Stanford, or came to Calif [ many from the east coast after graduating from IVY’s] and either started or work for very successful Hi Tech companies up and down the peninsula. Just like at Harvard, and other Ivy’s, the children of alumni don’t “fall far from the tree”, and are in many, if not most cases, equally smart and equally qualified academically for acceptance, compared to non-legacy applicants. </p>
<p>#2 Harker has a lot more UCB and UCLA acceptances because MORE HARKER STUDENTS apply to the UC system!! For many Menlo Students, there is NO DESIRE to attend a huge university, with over subscribed classes, entry level classes taught by TA’s with poor english skills, and all of the financial problems the UC’s currently have and which will continue to have into the future. UC students who have come back to Menlo reunions have NOT have great things to say about the quality of their UG classes at UC’s recently , and that information reaches the ears of current Menlo students and their parents. There are plenty of other colleges where Menlo students would much rather go to than the UC’s. My son was one of those who refused to even consider filling out the application for any UC’s. And once Menlo students receive early acceptances to colleges such as Stanford and Princeton, they are encouraged to withdraw their UC applications.The UC’s have the reputation they have mostly because of their graduate schools, not because of the UG schools, with a few notable exceptions- Haas and the school of engineering at Berkeley for examples.</p>
<p>I think POIH assumes Harker is of similar academic strength to Menlo, and that their students are of similar caliber. Based on this, all else being equal, they should have similar admissions outcome. However, because of the much higher ratio of acceptance at Stanford, she theorized Menlo has more than just academic strength working for it, and I think she attributes this to DA’s. There may be some merit to this, but some may question both the premise and the attribution.</p>
<p>^^^^^^^^^^^^^
your hypothesis may be right,but . . . the theme I keep seeing in this discussion is the corrosive idea that acceptance to the Ivy or th Stanford is the sina qua non.</p>
<p>One of my kids is Ivy-caliber; there is no way this kid would EVER apply to H or Y or P or S . . . when matriculations are announced will you think less of the high school because one fewer HYPS aceptance was listed?</p>
<p>Ivy fever is the hallmark of a doomed society: brand over substance.</p>
<p>Kei</p>
<p>“I think she attributes this to DA’s”- did you mean POIH? because as best as I know from previoius posts, POIH is not a she.</p>
<p>if you were referring to my post, NO, I’m saying that most of these legacy kids are just as bright and just as qualified academically of acceptances as non legacy kids.</p>
<p>re- read this please:
Just like at Harvard, and other Ivy’s, the children of alumni don’t “fall far from the tree”, and are in many, if not most cases, equally smart and equally qualified academically for acceptance, compared to non-legacy applicants.</p>
<p>and this from a current Stanford student:
About menlo, I know a decent number of people from menlo who are legacies. Guess what, as far as I can tell they are plenty smart enough to go to Stanford. The same goes for all of the other local privates.</p>
<p>This thread is a little confusing. Let me see if I understand …</p>
<p>POIH is an ambitious immigrant trying to help other parents identify expensive private high schools in the SF Bay area (“Harker” etc) that can maximize their children’s admissions chances to Ivy League colleges. In particular, he’s trying to identify schools with a good track record of helping children be admitted to Ivies largely on the basis of academic talent and hard work alone. If an expensive private school advertises a large number of placements into Stanford, it might mean yes, they’d be equally good at placements into Harvard, Yale, Princeton or MIT (“HYPM”). On the other hand, it may only mean they are exploiting local Bay Area connections, legacy status, or athletic talent to improve the chances of sub-par applicants who are not truly “Ivy Caliber”. So putting your geek kids into such a school might mean condemning them to a fate far worse than an excellent but local school like Stanford (namely admission to nothing better than a state school like UCLA or Berkeley). You have to find a school good at turning your kid into an academic “superstar” (and apparently this “Menlo” place is not good enough for that.)</p>
<p>Am I getting this right?</p>
<p>^^ LOL!!!
sounds right to me.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Let me parse that for your bovertine:</p>
<ol>
<li>Since the Menlo school list acceptances to UCSB as
California, University of: Santa Barbara - 119
shows that applicants from Menlo do apply to UCB, UCLA also.</li>
</ol>
<p>Since I listed first quantifiable measurement of an “Ivy-Caliber” applicant and two of these were
- 4 years GPA on a rigorous curriculum
- Standardized examination score i.e. SAT1 and SAT2</p>
<p>Since UC’s are very number driven and UCB, UCLA the star UCs pick the best of the pool available to UCs.
The large number of acceptances from any school to UCB, UCLA in California indicates the available pool of the “Ivy-Caliber” applicant on the basis of the above two indices.</p>
<p>Now if any school that gets ‘x’ acceptances at a HMSPY school then the number of acceptances at UCB, UCLA should be at 3*x based on the size of incoming batch is more than 2.5 times to 3 times that of schools in HMSPY only.
But it should be even more because the selectivity of the HMSPY is much more than that of UCB, UCLA.</p>
<p>I can go on explaining more if needed.</p>
<p>tk21769, No. This is not what I’m getting out of his post. Sorry I had a gender mix up earlier. Screen name really doesn’t help me much with gender association!</p>
<p>POIH is trying to isolate the students who get in tippy-tops on academic merit alone and use the credentials of these students to build “Ivy caliber” profiles to guide “Ivy aspiring” parents and frame their expectation.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Marite: Then your S won’t be considered as hooked applicant and if all hooked applicant accepted at Stanford from Menlo were like your son then there won’t be any disparity between the Stanford and second Princeton.</p>
<p>O.K., PaperChaserPop. But I think your interpretation is consistent with my characterization (and vice-versa.) Let me read back through the thread a bit …</p>
<p>POIH: Why shouldn’t there a discrepancy? Why shouldn’t students from the Palo Alto area prefer to be in CA? The only person nutty enough to prefer East Coast weather is my S.
But again, of his 11 person cohort of Harvard admits, only one declined–to go to Stanford. The reason is not far to see: proximity to home. Year in year out, very very few students from our hs apply to West Coast schools. It’s not because they are not West Coast caliber students!
One just cannot infer from the very basic information provided who is or who might be "Ivy Caliber student, who would not get in if it were not for legacy/URM/development/athlete/artistic status.</p>
<p>^^^: Again if it is question of matriculation, there would have not been any dispute.</p>
<p>What MPM is trying to convey that the discrepancy in large Stanford acceptances to that of HMPY and UCB/LA is that these star applicant don’t apply to other colleges because they got into Stanford.</p>
<p>If it was that these people got into multiple of HMSPY or UCB/LA then selected Stanford for matriculation there won’t be any question raised.
MPM said yield to UCB/LA is about 25%. i.e from the lower 56 number is 14. Add that to 52 makes it 66. Hence there are some star applicant from Menlo who got into Stanford but didn’t even get into UCLA if we take into account no one else was eligible from the school other than the star applicants who got into Stanford.</p>
<p>I’m just trying to convey that an “Ivy-Caliber”, which I explained for me is HMSPY, applicant can be quantified on many attributes because that was what OP’s original question was. Then I’ve been trying to explain how to spot hooked admissions from a school profile.</p>
<p>MPM: Let us talk about other Ivies instead of UCB/LA
Menlo:
Stanford: 52
Brown: 5
U. Penn: 11
Cornell: 12
Harker:
Brown: 22
Stanford: 31
U. Penn: 39
Cornell: 52</p>
<p>What do you think about this? If Menlo gets 52 acceptances from Stanford but 11 from U. Penn/Cornell. Don’t that ring a bell in your mind?</p>
<p>Anyone can make out that with lowering degree of selection the acceptances should increase and not go down.</p>
<p>“these star applicant don’t apply to other colleges because they got into Stanford.”
oh brother, once again, POIH you are parsing what I said and taking it out of context. I said not as many Menlo students apply to the UC’s as Harker students, and I gave numerous reasons why they don’t.
And you are ignoring the large percentage that do apply to Princeton, are accepted and do matriculate. As well as ignoring what marite said and what I said many posts back- studies show that students, even Ivy caliber students, DO tend to apply to colleges closer to home AND and matriculate at colleges within 500 miles of home… Stanford is the west coast “ivy”, and that’s good enough for many top students in Calif. Not all top students have HYP envy. I couldn’t even get my son to consider, let alone apply to HYP.</p>
<p>In summary, HARKER and MENLO, have lots of smart students who apply, for various reasons, to some of the same colleges, but in different quantities. And for what ever reasons the college admissions offices use to make admissions decisions, they are accepted at different colleges in different percentages.</p>
<p>^^^: I’ve moved onto other Ivies as I think most Menlo students like Harker students aspire to matriculate to Ivies and that is what we were trying to illustrate to the OP. I listed UC’s because the deadline for that happens before EA results otherwise yield for UCs at Harker also is ~25%. But the acceptances to other Ivies are inline with Stanford acceptances for Harker but in case of Menlo none of the other acceptances agree with that of Stanford.</p>
<p>I’ve nothing against Menlo, I was just pointing how to identify the hooked acceptances.</p>
<ol>
<li>It is a documented truth that most hooked (Legacy, sports etc) acceptances happen during SCEA.</li>
<li>According to MPM most acceptances from Menlo to Stanford happens during SCEA to the extent that (52 - 12) 40/52 gets in SCEA.</li>
<li>If that is not the case then an applicant who is good enough for Stanford should at least be good enough for Brown/Upenn/Cornell.</li>
<li>MPM now can’t say that Menlo applicant prefer UCB/UCLA over Brown/U Penn/Cornell because the applicant from wealthy Menlo doesn’t like large Public Universities.</li>
</ol>
<p>MPM any explanation on this.</p>
<p>POIH,
If you would be so kind as to first normalize college politics, geography, ED, EA, athletics, minorities, local competition, and the weather across the country, we can then examine your spiffy yield table.</p>
<p>My daughter talked for an entire year about NorthWestern, although she knew little more about the school than it’s name. It was in fashion among her peers. So far as I know not one student actually applied. This year Rice is a hot word, and in fact TWO students applied. One is waiting for an RD decision, the other was accepted ED leading to laughter in the community when the parent realized full cost of attendance payment was expected. In short, add spurious and haphazard decision making, if not outright random stupidity to your analysis.</p>
<p>
No need because your explanations make absolutely no sense to me, nor frankly (it would seem) to anyone else on here.
You have no information about which students apply to which schools, nor any acceptance percentages for Ivy schools or UC schools (which might actually be dispositive of something). The students applying to UC schools could be completely different from those applying to the Ivy schools. They could overlap. Who knows? Unless you have that data you are just speculating.</p>
<p>If you can give me, for each high school, the number of students that applied to each unviersity, and the overlap between applications, I will consider your explanation. Otherwise, you are not giving me enough information to make any decisions.</p>
<p>If you can show me for the cohort of students that applied to an Ivy there were a greater number accepted or rejected from a UC school, I might agree there was some statistical basis. But you don’t show that information. </p>
<p>So unless you have more stats, don’t waste any electrons explaining something to me that isn’t there. THe fact that somehow you either think it is irrelevant where students applied, or that you can somehow divine this information out of thin air is truly bizarre to me.</p>
<p>
Good grief. What if only 11 kids applied to U. Penn / Cornell? Does that ring a bell in your mind.</p>
<p>bovertine: Here are the numbers; if nothing looks odd to you then we don’t have to even say anything more. If it seems to you that number for Menlo doesn’t agree then we can talk.
Both schools are private prep in the same area; most students aspire to attend Ivies or Ivy+. </p>
<p>Menlo:
Harvard: 7
M. I. T. : 8
Stanford: 52
Princeton: 26
Yale Univ: 7
Columbia: 8
Brown U.: 5
U. Penn : 11
Cornell U: 12</p>
<p>Harker:
Harvard: 18
M. I. T. : 25
Stanford: 31
Princeton: 29
Yale Univ: 10
Columbia: 10
Brown U : 22
U. Penn : 39
Cornell U: 52</p>