<p>I wouldn't think a teacher would say anything negative about a student. All teachers are going to say that so-and-so is a good student, so I really don't see the purpose of rec letters. It just seems like an additional burden on admissions workers.</p>
<p>Someone enlighten me.</p>
<p>Some teachers will honestly say negative things about the student, if he/she doesn’t feel that they are qualified. It shows another view about the student.</p>
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<p>Your belief is false. My dad’s friend, an MIT graduate and a professor at some school (I forgot which) who then applied for something (I forgot what) ended up getting rejecting at all of the places he applied to for this thing (I forgot which places). He found out later that a “recommender” of his had written a terrible, terrible letter of recommendation that made my dad’s friend seem to be very crap.</p>
<p>In general, however, people will try to be nice and write “good” letters. “Exceptional” letters are much less common than “good” letters, however, but can make a world of difference.</p>
<p>It definitely is highly unethical, especially if the negatives were fabricated or overly exaggerated. The LOR-writer, in this case, is probably a miserable dip****.</p>
<p>O.P.</p>
<p>In answer to your question, it just dates back to a day when influence meant more. For example, a senator might write a letter of support of a young gentleman’s application. In this new century, should a college look more favorably on the skills of the person writing the recommendation? Is he or she going to the school or the applicant? Should five recommendations count more than one? Should a college care about the ‘small’ gift that the student will give his letter writer or be concerned about some ‘small’ token of appreciation his or her parents gave to the teacher at Christmas time? </p>
<p>It’s been covered but some people seem confused about the process. The teacher is not being asked to grade the student he or she is being asked to recommend the student. Big difference. That’s not to assume that the teacher knows the drill either. Sure, the teacher should excuse himself if he can’t in good conscious strongly recommend a student but equally the student should directly ask the teacher - politely of course. Something like, 'as you know, the process is that one and only one teacher provides a student’s recommendation to a college. Naturally, I need someone that will be a strong and unreserved advocate in support of my application. I would be honored if that teacher were you. '</p>
<p>You would be surprised. When I worked in admission that was my biggest surprise. Teacher’s often said negatives or just made clear through their lack of positives what they thought. We would also get letters from alum who obviously had their arm twisted to write a letter for a friend or relative who made clear they really didn’t support the candidate.</p>
<p>I read a recommendation today praising an applicant who had worked “effortlessly” in the recommendor’s classroom. As I read it, I thought they had meant “tirelessly”, but who’s to know?</p>
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<p>I suppose you will know, if you decide to pick up the telephone.</p>
<p>If the teacher or whoever is writing a negative recommendation letter for you then it is NOT a recommendation. Think about it. A letter of recommendation is meant to recommend the student to the school. Not diminish him/her chances. I’d say if you know for a fact that the person writing you the recommendation letter is going to say positive things about you then go ahead. If the person is most likely going to shed you in a negative light, stay clear. </p>
<p>I also don’t believe it’s not such a bad thing for a teacher to point out a flaw of the student that he/she can work on. It makes the recommendation more personal, lets the adcoms see a more humanly side of the applicant and it then doesn’t become the typical generic letter of recommendation. I’m sure adcoms knows that most if not all students have something personality wise to work on and for a recommender to leave that aspect out shows a flaw in his/her assessment of the student.</p>
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<p>Um, that’s completely false. Almost all colleges which require recommendations require at least 2.</p>
<p>Yes, recommendations shouldn’t be negative. But there is huge variance in how positive a recommendation can be. There’s a difference between “an extremely hard working student” and “one of the smartest students I have ever taught.” How the teachers describe you—even positively—provides insight into how you contribute to the classroom.</p>
<p>As noted above, recommendation letters are an anachronism that exist today mainly because they existed a hundred years ago when they were actually important because there were no admission tests and for many colleges your recommendation letters were of critical importance. One main reason they still exist is because colleges are entrenched bureaucracies for which making a significant change in the admission process would mandate ten years of study and at least a half dozen different votes before doing so. It is harder than changing the Consitution of the United States. </p>
<p>To their credit, most public universities did away with them decades ago. One reason is that intelligent people realized both that they added little to the process and that it was unfair to continue to have low paid high school teachers have to spend an ungodly amount of unpaid hours preparing letters (many teachers in large public schools get requests for letters from over 150 students) just to appease the requirements of thoughtless colleges which apparently do not consider such things.</p>
<p>Why are you people so negative about letters of recommendation?</p>
<p>They can address aspects of a student—how they actually think and act—which would not show up anywhere else in the application.</p>
<p>And no, the reason public universities did away with them isn’t because they’re useless—it’s because public universities try to save as much money as possible and do everything based on numbers.</p>
<p>Also, please remember that letters of recommendation are used throughout life. Many competitive situations (internships, jobs, etc.) also require letters of recommendation, even in situations where changes could be instituted very easily. (Ex. small business requiring letters of recommendation.)</p>
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<p>I said teacher. One teacher recommendation is the requirement at most colleges/universities, the other is a recommendation from the kid’s guidance counselor. </p>
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<p>The recommendation merely addresses how the person who did the recommendation acted. “How they think” I’ll assume is just lazy phrasing on your part. If they want to know more about the actual candidate, interviews can be helpful. The only part of the formal application that a student can share their thoughts is the personal essay. Assuming they actually wrote it. </p>
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<p>No. The are worthless too. Anybody can get two people to vouch for them being terrific. I’m sure Bernie Madoff has many personal and professional recommendations from some very influential people.</p>
<p>So you think you’re smarter than every business and college in the world? Pathetic. It’s not all about scores.</p>
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<p>Well, you must not have very good teachers. My classes are filled with discussion, debate, and critical thinking. I’d say the impression a teacher gets through those processes is far more valuable than a single essay. Heck, they’re evaluating you from all the essays you write all year (dozens) AND how you speak and interact in class.</p>
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Top colleges (ex. Harvard) require 2.</p>
<p>No what is pathetic is some kid with limited or no business experience discussing the importance of formal recommendations in business. </p>
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<p>From this I truly wonder what if anything you grasped about critical thinking. The point being discussed it’s not about how good your teachers, your class discussions/involvement or how many of your essays a teacher has seen. It’s about what value can a teacher’s recommendation bring to the admissions committee and how it possibly can be weighed in comparison to another candidate. If two candidates are vying for the last spot off the wait list, would you want the fate of the kids to rest on admissions knowing one of the teachers doing the recommending? That could go either way. Would you want it decided because one recommendation was ‘tougher’ than the other? As another poster mentioned, that could go either way as well. Further, would you value the recommendations knowing that in some communities, wealthy parents give teachers a week at their beach-front or slope-front homes at Christmas and a very generous savings bond made out to the son or daughter of a recommending teacher as a thank you?</p>
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I have worked at numerous startup companies, run my own business, and have been on hiring panels.</p>
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It’s you who I wonder about. What do you think recommendations are based on? How a student interacts in class and writes on essays. I would think that should be weighted very highly in the admissions system. In fact, I am incredulous that you would think a student’s in-class interactions shouldn’t be part of admissions. After all, if you take pride in a school’s academics, you want students who will <em>add</em> something to classroom discussions.</p>
<p>From this, I can only infer that your child is on bad relations with teachers and/or is a “grind” — working hard, but not actually contributing or critically thinking.</p>
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I consider that an ethics violation. I’m not saying the system is perfect. If I were to design a form, I’d likely have the recommender sign a statement that they received no gifts (cash or in-kind) from the recommendee.</p>
<p>Just like to point out that most of the college reps whose talks I’ve talked to have put a lot of emphasis on not only the message of the teacher rec but also the content; a lot were saying that they frequently have to essentially disregard teacher recs because all they say is “really good student” “hard worker” and lots of other pretty adjectives.
What they’re looking for is not so much adjectives as descriptions of the actions of the students themselves; anecdotes about the student’s particular classroom experience that truly tell the admissions committee about the individual.
So the rec letters you’re complaining about may be somewhat unfair in a whole different way. The rec letters that are uniformly good will neither help nor hurt the applicant; so all the kids essentially bribing their way to “good” rec letters won’t really get all that much of a leg up.
What could be genuinely considered unfair is the difference between the kid at the private school with 8 kids in each class, whose teacher has a handful of kids to get to know and write rec letters for, and whom will then be able to write stronger rec letters, as compared to the kid in the underfunded public school whose teacher has hundreds of kids to keep track of and dozens of rec letters to write. It’s those kids who really have to make an effort to stand out in a positive manner in the classroom, and even speaking from experience I think that may have been what hurt a lot of people I know who tended to sort of blend into the background during class, who were good but not exceptional and who ended up with rec letters to reflect that.</p>
<p>All this is in no way refuting the damage done by a BAD rec letter; if your teacher doesn’t like you, it will show, and that can really destroy your chances.</p>
<p>Oh, and most of the elite privates- top LACs, all the ivies, etc require 2 teacher recs PLUS a counselor rec.</p>
<p>That’s what I have a problem with samurkai. I go to a large public school, so teachers have a ton of students. There is almost no way they can know someone on a one-on-one basis unless a student goes and talks to them personally everyday or something. And I don’t have that kind of time. I’m at school to learn the material, not to brown-nose and forge relationships with a teacher. The whole rec letter process should be removed.</p>
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<p>Interesting. Let’s look at what you posted in April …</p>
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<p>So what exactly are these “numerous” startup companies? Is one a lemonade stand in front of your house? What are these hiring panels? Selecting a band for the Junior Prom? I just think there are some other people out here that might wonder how you go from needing advice on what to wear to your first interview in April to writing opinions about the importance of formal business recommendations in May. </p>
<p>“So you can wipe off that grin, I know where you’ve been. It’s all been a pack of lies.” [drum solo]</p>
<p>Um, actually I’m being completely honest.</p>
<p>I have run and worked at startup companies in the <em>technology</em> sector.</p>
<p>Of course, if you know anything about the technology sector (especially startups), you know that dress isn’t exactly the biggest deal. We don’t have to wear suits or anything and we don’t even have “real” interviews so much as code and philosophy discussions.</p>
<p>Contrast that with government and the Senate, which is almost the exact opposite and you would understand why I needed some advice. Plus, I was very nervous (it was an important interview for a prestigious program) and I mostly wanted some reassurance.</p>
<p>No need to jump on my case calling “gotcha.”</p>