I’ve heard this argument before but I think you are misstating it. The premise is that Core Classes are very large (which is true just about everywhere) and therefore constitute a large portion of the student body. What you really mean is that at any given moment, 80% of the students are in at least one large class, not that 80% of the classes are large.
I think this is very college and dorm specific and really not an indictment of the entire American Higher Ed system!
I lived in a traditional freshman dorm and we often marveled- by the luck of the draw since I don’t think there was that much social engineering going on- it was largely non-partying, non-drinking. The dorm was single sex by floor- so not a very popular choice in the 1970’s- which meant we got the nerds, the athletes who had to be at practice at 5 am, and a bunch of first gen students who didn’t know enough to request a party dorm.
If you are worried that every college dorm in the US is like what you describe- no. None of my kids lived in anything approaching that. And for all of us- by sophomore year there are generally enough choices to be made- I chose a lovely and quiet place which was a bit of a hike to campus (trade-off’s for sure) and then a GORGEOUS dorm right on the main quad but it was a substance-free “quiet” dorm (no noise after 10 pm). Not something everyone would pick- but there were a wide range of choices ranging from Animal House to where I ended up- practically a monastery but convenient and beautiful.
Your comparison with Europe- again, so country specific. A student at UCL in London (in an eye-poppingly expensive part of a VERY expensive city) is either commuting from home, or living WAY out (South of the Thames is popular- some still gritty and cheap neighborhoods there although gentrification comes for everyone eventually). So if you think college kids in London are living in cute suite-style apartments near the British Museum… yeah, the oligarch’s kids. But not average Brits!
5 Likes
In what way? My understanding of the UK system is that it is exceedingly hard to switch majors, to the point of having to start fresh. In addition, my further understanding is that you principally or exclusively take courses in your major.
For all its faults, this is one of the best things about the US higher ed, although it seems to be changing a bit on the changing majors bit. Perhaps it’s my focus on that, but that is a prime differentiator between the two
Oh, and I guess some folks would deny the UK is European, but I guess that’s a 2016’ish issue.
1 Like
I speak above about why core classes are so large. My point is that there is actually no technical reason that “core classes” should be that much larger than small niche courses. There are many colleges out there which teach the core classes in multiple small sections, each taught by faculty. The fact that some universities have single faculty who teach the 100 and 200 level courses to all the students who are required to take the class is the reason that there are giant classes of 600, 800, or over 1,000.
This is a policy choice by the universities, not a methodological requirement of teaching.
My other point is that universities are making this choice and trying to obscure the fact by presenting misleading numbers. These universities claim that “80% of their classes are small” to purposefully create the illusion that 80% of the classes that a student will take will be small.
So if a student needs to take 36 courses in order to graduate, claiming that 80% of the classes at the college are small creates the illusion that 29 of those courses will be taught in classes of 20 or fewer. In fact, at many of these colleges, around 20 will be taught in classes that are far larger.
At many universities, more than 1/2 of the classes that a student takes are “core classes”, including all of the fundamental classes in their major. So they will be taking at least 50% of their courses are large classes. Students at those universities will generally not sit in a classroom with fewer than 50 students until they are juniors.
There is nothing inherently wrong about having large intro classes, with TAs interacting with the students. What is wrong is pretending that this is not the case, because the university wants to sell an image which does not match reality.
3 Likes
And in many cases these are not “designated” student apartments - they are just regular lofts that are occupied by some renters who also happen to be part-time or full-time student. It also would be very normal for buildings to have a mix of tenants (the further away they are) - some might be students, others are not.
So yes - it’s a normal tenant/landlord relationship, with all the implications you state.
Of course, that same applies for many upper class-people in the U.S. as well, who chose to live off-campus. My daughter started renting an apartment together with friends since junior year, had to open an account with the gas, electric and cable company, has to deal with the building super in case of any appliance/building problems - but first had to figure out how to show 80-times rent as annual income before any Manhattan broker would even talk to them.
2 Likes
I didn 't pay anthing so I guess I really shouldn’t answer the queston. 
Fair enough. But, then you get into the situation of “How big is big?”. At Wesleyan IIRC, the largest class borders on 200 and is taught by the president of the college. That would probably be considered small by UC-Berkeley standards.
1 Like
For many residential colleges in the US, resident students tend to live in the dorms mostly as frosh, while upper class students live nearby off-campus, often in whatever normal apartments there are nearby, similar to what you see the European model as.
2 Likes
I find the conversation on class size very interesting. One of my most memorable and favorite courses as an undergrad was psych 101, with nearly 2,000 students, taught in the concert hall, at Cornell. It was an amazing class with a professor who was a pioneer in his field.
I think my D’s largest class has had 200. Her smallest, this semester, has 10.
4 Likes
Wow…2000?
Reminds me of a favorite line from The Great Gatsby:
“And I like large parties. They’re so intimate. At small parties there isn’t any privacy.”
6 Likes
If a department has 10 instructors with each teaching 2 courses, then 20 courses can be taught in a given term. If the prerequisite structure is that there is 1 intro course that is a prerequisite to all of the other courses, and 200 students want to take the intro course, then a department can assign 1 instructor for the 200 student intro course and offer 19 other courses, or it can assign 10 instructors for 10 20-student sections of the intro course and offer 10 other courses.
Obviously, the operations research problem is more complicated than that, since not all instructors can teach all courses, but that is the basic tradeoff unless department instructional resources are far greater than needed for the student demand for its courses.
One of my son’s favorite classes had over 500 in the room and many more streaming. Had some of the hardest tests of his undergrad career.
LACs are actually generally pretty good at keeping even core classes down in size. I expect that, at Wesleyan, most classes are under 50, and that class is an anomaly.
Size is mostly absolute, in this case. A classroom of 20 is qualitatively different from a class of 120, no matter where you are, and a class of 700 requires a very different system than a class of 120 at any school.
Small is any number in which the instructor can learn the names of all of the students within the first few weeks. Medium is when it takes the entire term, and generally only includes remembering the faces maybe have one TA to help grade. Large is when you only remember some students who stood out, you need one or two TAs for grading and putting together exams, but students will come directly to you for most issues. Very large means that the students will always go to their TA for any help, and their TA will also have sections in which they go over the topic of the lecture. TAs will also not only grade, but often write the exams and quizzes.
It’s in the “very large” category that the differences comes out. At some universities, “very large” is 300-400 students, while at other places, “very large” can be 1,500.
Also, the TA thing depends on whether there is a lab part of the class. If there is a lab, even a class of 150 will have multiple TAs, since labs are limited to fewer than 20 at most colleges, and these will be run by TAs.
MIT once told us that a class of size of 500 would have staffing of about 75 people, of all stripes, starting up from undergrads
Private schools with healthy finances can afford that. Or should I say, can afford the number of staff that a course of that size should have.
Back in the Stone Age, I TAed regularly for an intro bio class which had around 800-1,200 students. It had a lab embedded, so TAs also ran labs. Each lab section had up to 24 students, and each TA taught two sections. So there was the instructor, 17-25 TAs, a TA/ lab coordinator, and around 10 lab prep staff. There may have also been a dedicated administrative person. So, for 1,200 students, there were, maybe, 40 people. I can tell you that it wasn’t enough.
If all else were equal, everyone would prefer smaller classes. But all else aren’t equal, so class sizes can’t be a standalone metric.
1 Like
Not actually true. There are many students who feel a lot more comfortable with large lecture classes. Many students do not want to participate in class, and for many introverts, attending a class which requires participation can be torture. A class of 20 is not a good place for many people like that.
Other students just want to go in, listen to the material, and then come back for the exams. Many students have no real interest in “going deeper”, especially in classes which are required but not interesting for them.
There is a dynamic that large class can have which is lacking in a small class. Many students like that dynamic.
9 Likes
These students can take the classes remotely. Or if they find the lectures boring, they can just take the exams.
1 Like
In my naïveté at that time, I thought that the 500 person class is fundamentally bad, regardless of staffing levels. Because the prof will never get to know your name. Yesterday my son called to tell me that he got into a 10person creative writing class with an 80+ year old famous author. Both he and I were happy :-). Small pleasures.
2 Likes
Before CS became so popular, there generally wasn’t a need for a 500-person class. Now because of the pandemic, there will likely never be a 500-person in-person class.