What's worth paying up for?

Parents Forum
1

<p>Here are the groundrules: please chime in if your state has a flagship public university in the top 50 of the US News top 100 National Unis. Do not debate the legitimacy of the rankings; for our purposes it is assumed that they are valid.</p>

<p>IF you live in such a state, what would cause you to pay a substantial premium over in-state public costs (assuming your kid lives on campus) for a bachelor's degree?</p>

<p>I'll start in order to make this a little easier. For me, there are very few experiences that would be worth paying a substantial premium for. If my child wanted a classic "great books" curriculum I would shell out for St. Johns or U. of Chicago or Reed. If my child wanted a superb technical education, I would happily pony up for MIT or Caltech-I'm not sure if I'd pay up for anybody else in this category since our state U. is no slouch in this area, and those are the two "names" that grab people. </p>

<p>What categories am I missing, and what standout schools belong in each category? We are in the fortunate position of living in a state with a flagship school with a diverse set of strengths, and if they don't have it the land grant school, not as well known, has stealth expertise in a lot of technical schools.</p>

<p>Given our embarrassment of riches, it's a little hard for me to justify the cost of an out of state program that falls short of "best in the country." </p>

<p>What are the undergrad meccas for the broadest and most common liberal arts undergrad majors: English, psychology, biology, history, math, chemistry, physics, economics?</p>

<p>Feel free to add subjects if I missed anything! Don't include preprofessional courses like premed or business-thanks!</p>

2

<p>Mombot:</p>

<p>Our state u is not among the top 50. But had it been, it would not have suited S1 who felt more comfortable in a smaller LAC and S2 who wanted a mid-sized uni.</p>

<p>Non-exhaustive list of undergrad meccas for math: Harvard, MIT, Princeton, Chicago, Harvey Mudd, Duke, Umich, UWisc, UIUC, Berkeley.</p>

3

<p>


Well, I'm in Texas and UT usually makes it into the top 50, does that count? For us like several on the board that was our benchmark. I'll pay this much, UT COA. So we may not be the best family to respond.;) For us to pay more involved larger than normal loans and substantial sacrifices.</p>

<p>Within our pay range she was free to wander, and she did, knowing that the final ticket price had to be UT COA or less. Outside of our pay range we were only considering Duke, Yale, and Amherst - all of which are very highly ranked national reputation schools that met specific criteria that D had (fit), much better than UT did. </p>

<p>I can't imagine agreeing to pay more for very many schools that were not at least somewhat comparable to those, irregardless of specific program rankings. (She could do a version of a Great Books curriculum at Plan II).</p>

4

<p>We have 2 public schools in the top 50: UVa and the College of William and Mary. D thought UVa was much too big and she didn't want to have large lecture hall classes for GE reqs. She did like William and Mary but ultimately she opted for Washington and Lee University.</p>

5

<p>Motherdear, did she pay more (if that's not too personal)? I think that's what the OP is looking for (but I could be VERY wrong ;)) , that and then why did she/you pay more (or what did she/you pay more for at W&L)? </p>

<p>Oh, and congrats for having the good sense to be in Virginia when college time came. It was nice to have those two in the bag, I'm sure. LOL.</p>

6

<p>I have friends who both went to small liberal arts colleges. They think the large university setting for education is a terrible way to spend college and wouldn't spend the $$ to send their kids to one. S1 is at Reed.</p>

7

<p>As with everything, it depends. My state has an excellent flagship university, of which I am proud to be an alumna. However, even for in-state residents, when taking into consideration room and board, it is by no means cheap. Add to that that a great many students take 5 years to graduate and the cost is probably not much different than a private college or university. Both my children opted for significantly smaller schools, got some merit aid, have been extremely happy with their choices (that alone would have been worth a certain amount of extra money), and will graduate in 4 years with a solid education under their belts. Overall the difference in cost, if any, was not very large.</p>

8

<p>
[quote]
I'll start in order to make this a little easier. For me, there are very few experiences that would be worth paying a substantial premium for. If my child wanted a classic "great books" curriculum I would shell out for St. Johns or U. of Chicago or Reed. If my child wanted a superb technical education, I would happily pony up for MIT or Caltech-I'm not sure if I'd pay up for anybody else in this category since our state U. is no slouch in this area, and those are the two "names" that grab people. </p>

<p>What categories am I missing, and what standout schools belong in each category?

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Please excuse me, but I feel you are approaching this question from the wrong angle by framing your question in terms of "categories" and "standout schools". In my opinion, there are two "F" words that need to be weighed in ** any ** choice of college: finances and fit. If a particular school would place an uncomfortable financial burden on a family, then it is obviously not the right school for the student, no matter what its other advantages may be. Conversely, there are schools that, even with a low price tag, are so far away from what a particular student needs to thrive that it is better to avoid them. </p>

<p>My son wanted a school with small class size. It was very important to him. Both my husband and I agreed that he is the kind of kid who would not fare well at the back of a very large lecture hall. This is one of the factors that entered into his decision to go to Emory (where we are paying full freight) rather than take up the offer of automatic admission to UT Austin (ranked #52) under the state's %10 rule. About a quarter of UT's classes are over 50 students; about a third are under 20 students. At Emory, the figures are very different: 7% over 50 and two-thirds of the classes with less than 20 students. For similar reasons, son did not apply to Cornell, since a quarter of the classes have 50 students or more. It did not have to do with public or private, but with the "fit" that was involved. This was definitely not the only thing he considered in terms of fit (most of which pointed away from a large state uni), but I am citing it as an example.</p>

<p>Another student, incidentally, could use his own list of criteria and come up with a perfect match for an in-state public uni. It depends what that student was looking for.</p>

<p>Son was fortunate that we could swing the finances, since this is something we've been saving for a long time. If finances had proven to be a problem, we would not have pushed UT Austin at him, but rather encouraged him to look for a school where merit aid was possible, even if that college was ranked "lower" in the USNWR standings. </p>

<p>I certainly understand your monetary concerns. Any consideration of finances has to be taken seriously, but I don't think you can automatically assume that a student should go to a in-state public just because that school has a "top-50" ranking and the price tag on other schools is higher. There are too many factors to put into the basket--amount of fin aid, possibility of merit money, etc. before a decision can be made.</p>

9

<p>Cami, I agree completely with your post.</p>

<p>My D wanted the small classes; she learns better in this sort of class-- and also a small school with an intimate and friendly campus community. She wanted to continue her sport in college. WE wanted her to leave California's "bubble." She attends a wonderful LAC.</p>

<p>Our state is Ca; she was also admitted to Berkeley & Santa Cruz. We are paying full freight at the LAC which comes out to double what the UC would have cost. OTOH, she is thriving for all the reasons that she chose this school.</p>

<p>If full freight was a financial impossibility, we would have picked Beloit or Lawrence where she had merit aid.</p>

10

<p>Our flagship uni does not have the essential element in my son's college search: D1 lacrosse. A complete and absolute dealbreaker. His list was the top 20 D1 lacrosse schools, <em>then</em> narrowed by those with business programs, and theoretically by size and fit.</p>

<p>It would be (this weekend) a little hard to overlook our neighboring state's flagship uni, playing in the Championship game tomorrow, but UMass was never on his radar screen (and I don't think S was on theirs -- and in this situation that's a factor.)</p>

<p>I refused to pay for a "four year lacrosse camp" but we are willing to pay for a top flight education at the right fit school with the right lacrosse team.</p>

11

<p>mombot,
i am paying $44k/year to go to harvey mudd. this is a ton of money...but after my first year, i have to say that it has been worth every cent. the school is absolutely amazing (not too pretty!) and very challenging/ intriguing. </p>

<p>how much would you pay to be on a first name basis (and just hang out/ go to dinner) with your first-class profs? my answer: priceless. if you have any chance in going to such a school (swarthmore, olin, to name a few) you should jump at the opportunity.</p>

12

<p>Unfortunately there are lots of us with live in States without a State U in the top 50. OOS tuition for some of the good State U's is pretty high. At that point paying more for a private U makes sense. Then there are those big considerations of programs and fit.</p>

13

<p>
[quote]
what would cause you to pay a substantial premium over in-state public costs

[/quote]

My D's choosing it - given that it was a top school based on more or less arbitrary rankings, based on SOMEBODY's ranking.</p>

14

<p>WE are paying $50,000/yr to NYU nstead of $11,000 (that includes room and board) to UCONN. Our view - NYU has many more quality internship possibilities, a network potential in NYC and job opportunities and of course it is in NYC!! Actually all you have to do is read the literature from both schools and you get a sense of what kind of internships and jobs students get. It was hands down NYU-Stern. Plus the bonus - my S plays on the Mens Volleyball team. UCONN doesn't have a Mens volleyball team.</p>

15

<p>Oh I meant to add:</p>

<p>Awsome math and econmics - UChicago, NYU, Dartmouth
Awesome philosophy - NYU</p>

16

<p>Just for the record: According to USN&WR, 2003, there are not many top 50 state unis, 15 altogether, 6 of them in CA, and few in the same states as top private unis and LACs:</p>

<p>UCB #20
UVA #23
UCLA #25
UMICH #25 (tied)
UNC-Chapel Hill #28
College of William & Mary #30
UCSD #31
UWisc-Madison #31 (tied)
UIUC #38
UC-Davis #43
Penn State #45
UC-Irvine #45 (tied)
UCSB #47
UT-Austin #47 (tied)
UWash #47 (tied).</p>

17

<p>Great post, Cami215! When I read the original post, I wondered about kids who need a LAC environment. There are about 15 publics in the top USNews national universities, but none in the corresponding LACs, because public schools just aren't organized like LACs. But what if that's what a kid really needs? Just musing a bit about fit: Harvard and Princeton are currently ranked #1 by USNews for national unis, and Williams for LACs; obviously, these aren't interchangeable institutions and a kid who's thriving at Williams won't necessarily find what he really needs at Harvard (and vice versa).</p>

<p>Actually, my oldest d is a W & M grad, and that school is somewhat LAC-like (smaller student population, somewhat smaller classes than many publics, well-defined core curriculum, etc.). But it's not somewhere where everybody knows your name, and I think it's unique among top-ranked publics in resembling a LAC to the extent that it does. So it's not an option for someone who strongly prefers a more intimate setting.</p>

<p>Our state's top SUNY (Binghamton) is an excellent school with a talented student body, but it's not ranked in the top 50 and it's not a popular draw among NY's very top students. We felt that the advantages of going out of state, to universities with more national recognition that offered experiences very different from those our daughters could have living 75 miles from home, was indeed worth paying a premium for.</p>

<p>Not everyone knows that Cornell is NY's land grant institution and includes several New York statutory colleges for state residents: Agriculture and Life Sciences, Industrial Labor and Relations, and Human Ecology for undergrads; the Vet School for grads. All courses are taught by Cornell faculty, the degree is from Cornell, and courses may be taken in the College of A & S, as long as a majority of credits are taken in the statutory school. As I understand it, the cost of tuition is midway between Cornell's undergrad tuition and the SUNY rate. This made Cornell a pretty nice option that would have been difficult to turn down if the cost at W & M hadn't been a bit less.</p>

18

<p>We have come full circle on this issue, initially thinking we would happily pay $40,000+, but now deciding it's not worth it in our particular situation. First, boths sons want a large school and favor the large publics, probably because both parents went to large schools (UT Austin and UW Madison) and loved the big size. Second, we live in Virginia now, which as people have pointed out has some good public options. Third, neither son is much of an intellectual. S1 does work hard and will attend UVA next year. S2 probably won't have the grades for UVA and right now wants UW Madison. However, we think Va Tech would be just as good a fit for him at a much lower price. He plays football and that may enter into the decision, but too soon to tell. We will probably use the 529 plan savings for grad school costs.</p>

19

<p>We were willing to spend about $10,000/yr. more for d # 2 for an OOS public U as we felt the internship/work experience opportunities were greater than what she would get by attending SUNY colleges. D is a pretty average type "B" student who is going to major in sports management. As some OOS schools were near urban centers, we felt she would have more opportunities, so we were willing to spring the extra bucks for her to attend Temple-Towson or GMU. After all was said and done, she decided to go to SUNY Cortland which does seem to have a pretty good sports management program and their listing of internship placements seemed impressive. So I guess we lucked out after all. Frazzled- tuition at Cornell is about $18,000 for the NY statutory programs. D # 1 is in ILR. Taking both girls up to school in the fall should be a breeze as Ithaca and Cortland is about 1/2 hour drive. We'll be renting a cargo van- so we can do it all in one trip. Even more of a savings for us as we'll save money on gas too!!</p>

20

<p>Evergreen State College in wa and New College in Florida are both public liberal arts colleges- I know there are others?</p>