What schools are we missing? Strong Theater and Physics, In Big City, Gives Merit Scholarship, + Decently Prestigious - Unicorn? [4.0 GPA, <$60k]

Understood - and let’s take the political part out a minute - because yes it’s an easy admit.

This can be hard for kids - but not always. After they visit somewhere, they can “fall in love” - which also isn’t good if it doesn’t work.

So two examples - after visiting WUSTL (after many others), my son was in love - that is, until we visited Purdue. And he was in love. Got in for engineering with $10K merit.

Had zero interest in the school where he ended up. Zero - that is, until they had a day where they had to job shadow someone or visit a school and three friends invited him to Tuscaloosa. He came home, applied, got in three days later - and then told us he applied. So a totally easy, whatever school. btw - job wise - killed it - many offers and works with kids at the school he declined. Too much is put on ranking…but I digress.

What changed his tune from a top 10 engineering school to one that barely registers a blip? The campus somewhat (really nice), I’m guessing closer to mom by three hours, but most importantly - got his own room and shared bath with one other kid. Once he saw that vs. the overcrowded situation at that time at Purdue - he was done.

That he got so much auto merit that I saved $80K - not even on his radar - although nice for me.

My daughter applied to 21 and chose #16 ranked of 17 she got into. I’ll never forget, the admissions session - totally bothered her. She had a 32 ACT - and the range was 20-27 or 21-28 for OOS - and she was way above.

But - even though she got into much higher ranked schools - from W&L to UF to UGA Honors and USC Honors and UMD, etc. - she chose the school that fit. Why - it just felt better to her. Bonus for dad (but not her) - she had merit money (although got a lot more after accepting - that’s just dumb luck).

So it is hard for kids - they think they’ve worked hard - and why would I go to a safety?

But at the same time - you have to look deeper - and again, you’re off U of A so this is just an example.

You’d be out 4 years at $100K vs. let’s say Rochester got to $250K - so her hard work saves mom and dad a boat load. Savings for grad school, a house, wedding, your retirement - whatever. If she had a 3.0, you wouldn’t have that $32K off a year.

She’ll likely go in with credits - more likely at a public than a private - giving her flexibility to do more of the things she wants academically.

I would argue - every flagship in the country - even a Wyoming or Rhode Island - have Ivy or Ivy like students on their campus. Alabama is not hard to get into at all - yet has as many national merit scholars as anywhere. Why? They buy them in. I’ve come across enough kids serving me at restaurants or my kid’s friends to know - tons of kids choose safeties. My daughters best guy friend at Charleston got into Rice, Penn, and Vandy - and yet goes to a regional public. And guess what - had to WD a pre med class - Org Chemistry. Lots of smart kids and rigor all over.

So you don’t see the value in full pay (I personally agree) - and this is where her hard work pays off - whether you want your budget to be $20K, $30K or $60K - her hard work is what will get you there. You might need to bribe her with a summer trip or something to make it known. :slight_smile:

So there are various ways to look at it.

And when you are looking at the overall school and difficulty of admission - you’re missing the point. It is one of the premier colleges for physics in the country.

Here’s an example - for Supply Chain, Michigan State and Arizona State are #1 and #2. UTK was #3 but swapped places with MIT. Now, would anyone say Michigan State is “better” than MIT - of course not. But it’s reputation in this area is.

So yes, U of A is an easy in - but guess what - a 2.8 in high school or 3.2 with 24 ACT is not going to graduate in physics - no how, no way. Engineering - which is physics related - has the highest non completion rates in the country - some studies say up to 60%. So when she is in knee deep in physics - wherever she is - she’s going to be with really really really smart kids.

U AZ is #10 (behind #9 Rochester) is # of PHDs it has - meaning, U of A undergrads in PHD programs. #11 is Harvard, #13 Washington, #14 UMN (on your list and very good), #15 Princeton, #20 UMD. These are not weighted for size.

So - I think when you get to your final and let’s say it’s Rochester at $70K vs. Depaul at $40K - yes, Depaul is an easy in - but if it meets your need (city, etc) and it saves a few bucks - it’s because of what she accomplished that got her to that point, not just because it’s cheaper. She made it cheaper by having them beg to have a student who is accomplished like her on campus. At the end of the day, if Depaul is urban and she wants that and Rochester isn’t - the relative ranking won’t matter - she has to be there four years, day after day after day (if these were the two schools in contention).

People pay to have the strongest students on campus - especially when they’re not the top schools. Career wise, there’s likely little difference in someone graduating UCLA vs. Arizona. They’re both large flagships.

But their selectivity is different, that’s true.

And in order to get that “UCLA” kid, they have to pay more - easy for me to understand and you I’m sure - but harder for the kid.

But you want a top schools at a lesser price and it can happen.

But when it does - it won’t be due to her charm and personality. It will likely be due to her profile which will soar above the average students at the school she attends.

So commend her for her greatness - but only if she hooks you up financially :slight_smile:

Have you guys started visiting schools so she can get a feel? What kids say upfront they want often changes after visiting campus. It certainly did for both mine.

Thanks

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Yes, I agree with all of this. I was specifically referring to Arizona as a party school, for which I think it still has a very strong reputation. Pitt was on the list for a while and I can’t remember why it got dropped off our list. Probably rankings/ratings related? But both theater and physics are decently strong.

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I would not pay attention to rankings. Pitt is a great school with strong academics.

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This is great, and I totally agree. She is an “academic validation” kiddo - defines herself in getting the gold stars and right now the most golden starriest thing she can think of is an acceptance to an elite school. We are talking a lot about the fact that the prestige of undergraduate schools really doesn’t matter much, and she should “save” her gold star seeking for grad/professional school, etc. I think she is getting on board with that. And boy oh boy am I glad we are starting when she is a junior not a senior to get that path more solidified.

We haven’t toured schools yet, but we did go to a college fair. She loved the Lawrence U rep there (he happened to be a theater/neurobiology double major) and so that is now high on her list (it wasn’t before because of its “low ranking”). (She’s not convinced of Appleton, but open to the idea).

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If she is looking at elite schools, has she considered Yale. No, she wouldn’t major in musical theater there or even minor in it. But the school has so many talented student run shows all the time, that I bet she would get lots of great experience with other talented students.

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She would love Yale, but they don’t give any non-needs-based scholarships and we don’t want to pay $90k a year. :money_mouth_face:

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That’s true…all need based.

Unfortunately that is going to be at all top schools. Why would a private like Yale give your daughter money if they have thousands of kids of her caliber in line to take a spot paying full price? They need some diversity kids but those can be filled with QB so they will get at the same time credit for diversity and low income…

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What about Hobart and William Smith? I don’t know about the majors but I do know a med student who received a large merit award.

And a low acceptance rate (well that’s dependent how one defines but much lower than a few years ago) - it’s a hot school like UMD, FSU - and these schools have really raised their selectivity level.

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yup. That is why the list in my OP looks the way it does. It only includes schools that provide non-needs merit discounts. Some of them are still top 50, but none are top 20 overall (though may be in top for specific majors of interest).

The Top Rated in my OP list:
UC Berkeley, Univ of North Carolina, Chapel Hill, UC - San Diego, University of Washington (Seattle), Davidson (NC), Univ of Illinois, Urbana-Champaign, University of Wisconsin (Madison), University of Chicago).

Those on our current list that give the most % of non-need based aid:
Oberlin
Lawrence University
Loyola University Chicago
Case Western Reserve
Clark University
University of Utah
Macalaster
Northeastern
University of San Diego

Looks like they don’t have much going on for physics or theater, from what I can tell.

UNC may ? be within budget without merit (which is difficult for OOS applicants).

Does your school have Naviance? If so, is there a pattern with acceptances? There is a 19% cap for OOS students and they get a lot of apps.

I’m assuming from your screen name that you are instate for Utah, so it will likely be comparable to or cheaper than Arizona even with the merit there. And that’s going to make most other places look expensive, especially if you get one of the Utah instate scholarships.

We also love the U, but S23 was comparing Utah against ASU and Arizona for astrophysics/astronomy (his three choices before getting off the waitlist at UCSC) and felt that Arizona and ASU were much stronger programs, especially in terms of access to research. That might not necessarily be the case for other types of physics, but is worth bearing in mind, especially if he’s considering a PhD long term.

I get the issues about Arizona being a party school, but it’s worth noting that a very large number of poorly qualified students who just want to party wash out quickly and don’t come back after the first semester, and you aren’t going to find many of them majoring in physics anyway.

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Did we establish that the UC’s/CSU’s will come off of the list? I would also add that California’s “top 50” should come off of the list.

Your family is trying to stay under $60K. When you add rents in SoCal and NorCal, you will not be under your budget.

EX: SDSU does not participate in the WUE (Western Undergraduate Exchange). Cost is $44K per academic year (~9 months).

If she wants to live off campus, after the first year, she’s going to have to pay that glorious “Sun tax” which means current rent and gas costs.

Right now, rents in San Diego are running about ~$3K per month for a clean, safe apartment with at least one bedroom. Gas is currently at $6.00+ per gallon. The Trolley only goes so far, so she will need a car.
So if she shares an apartment with a roommate, her costs to rent just the apartment will be ~$18K per calendar year.

More roommates will reduce the costs but she’ll have to find larger digs to accommodate those roommates and driveways. Her monthly expenses, in a shared household, for cable, utilities, transportation will be significant and do add up. That’s at a CSU.

UCSD is off of your budget and the rents in La Jolla are up.

USD may give merit, but they typically use their big funds to attract low income high achievers and athletes. Expect to pay full fees at $77K. It is a Catholic-based university, so I know that there are some requirements for philosophy-based coursework. At least two courses, I think, in some sort of Religious studies.
UW, is expensive and is very selective. Our daughter applied and got into UW but it was expensive and she wasn’t selected for WUE. Schools cap how many WUE participants they admit.

If your DD really wants California, then use the WUE finder to find schools that are not impacted, but they probably wont show up on the top 50 list. Save On Tuition | Western Undergraduate Exchange (WUE)

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Top 50 what.

The WSJ says Florida International is the #4 if I remember correctly public, #19 overall. Well ahead of many publics that people feel are elite.

There are so many rankings and schools like Tulane that were 40 or so in US News last year is now 73. WUSTL - perennially a top 15-20 and now barely hanging to top 25.

So many schools tumbled - W&L now #21 LAC and was #11 last year. Vanderbilt had a tiff at their drop.

Are the schools different than b4? Nope.

What changed? The methodology - but again, if you read what they rank on, it’s likely stuff that isn’t relevant to your kid’s decision. A lot of it is socio economic stuff and zero to do with selectivity, etc. But there’s Forbes, WSJ, and other rank. So top 50 - I mean, Babson was just rated #10 in one rank and US News doesn’t even rank them.

Here is what they rank on - things like - how many kids have pell grants, peer assessment is 20% - hey, who do you think is a great school? - really…I mean, that’s mind bogglinglly stupid IMHO that 1/5 the grade is by someone saying - well Harvard is great - let’s make them #1., First Gen Grad rates is another - does your student really care about that? It’s in the ranking.

You know what’s not in there - acceptance rates, etc. They have test scores in there for those that count them or they remove them.

If kids, any kid, read the criteria - they’d be miffed. Totally miffed. Just saying. Scroll down when you open up. There are many rankings and they one shows a school top 20 and another way lower. I suspect you mean US News but again - it doesn’t factor departments, it doesn’t factor cost (is #40 at $80K better than #80 at $40K?), career outcomes…I get it, we all get caught up in it but they’re just selling magazines. It literally means nothing - and my kid experienced that when it came time to get an internship and then a job (he was overwhelmed with interviews). Same with my daughter for her Fall internship - and these schools barely measure a blip on these rankings.

I get it - the kids love it - but I’ll just say - US News marketing is working well.

How U.S. News Calculated the Best Colleges Rankings (usnews.com)

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Go find some close to home schools - large, small, medium. In city, not in city, etc.

Start planning trips - weekedays better but whenever you can - but in the meantime start with some local.

You can always - if you’re driving to visit grandma for the weekend or going away for fall break - hey, on the way we’re going to stop at FSU or wherever you’re driving by.

A college fair and admissions officer (ie. salesperson) - they’re great but that’s what they are - they’re supposed to be great. They’re selling.

But you do also get to learn about programs you know nothing about - it’s why my son added Embry Riddle and Florida Tech - they specialize in aero which is what he wanted at one point.

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I agree with this in general, but for now there are only so many proxies one can find to somewhat determine the overall “quality” of a school. The professors it attracts, the students it attracts, the resources available to those that are there, the commitment to academics or “achievement”, the preception for future employers or grad schools, etc. For sure there need to be more nuanced and deep dive on what specific schools actually offer, but having gone to a “prestigious” school myself for grad/prof school and a state school for undergrad, there was definitely a difference in overall academic quality (in both the profs and my peers) at the top tier school. That said, we are still pushing for a more reasonably priced undergrad (whether state or private + merit aid) so that the $ and “prestige” can be saved for when it matters more.

Dang - I was thinking Texas :slight_smile:

I think much of this depends. My older daughter attended a small instate school for undergrad (not prestigious at all) and attended a well known/regarded graduate school. Her advisor told her that she came in very well prepared.

Has your daughter considered the U of Maryland?

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