What Straight-A Students Get Wrong

That Time article sounds pretty foolish (“Valedictorians aren’t likely to be the future’s visionaries”) when you realize that Jeff Bezos was actually valedictorian of his high school class.

It’s pretty obvious that valedictorians will be over-represented amongst “visionaries” (however you define that) compared to their share of the general population, but valedictorians are just rare overall. They are less than 1% of the population but I’d have a hard time naming 100 other non-valedictorian “visionaries” who are remotely on a par with Bezos.

The gifted are different. When I look back at a more gifted friend from college and at son I see they were not driven to get A’s. In fact, their grades were sometimes lower because they were bored. In HS son got B’s in AP stats because he had zeroes on homework and 100% on all tests. A’s in AP calculus because homework not graded. Likewise he was not grade driven in college- he did more work when most interested and excelled in honors courses. He also took many unrelated to his majors without considering whether or not he would get the A. Was not privy to his later grades but he did well enough to get the honors in his major so must have done okay.

For those in the top percentiles (not necessarily the top << 1%) all A’s is unlikely if the student stretches themselves outside what they can easily do, especially in college. It seems to me the top grade getters are not as often the most intelligent, most knowledgeable, most capable people since those with top abilities care more about learning than grades. I can see why employers are not overly concerned about grades since they can see beyond them.

I can also see how being valedictorian does not mean being the smartest or most accomplished/knowledgeable in a HS class. Son’s HS did not weight grades plus having many more classes (such as no study halls and summer classes) with A’s and even just one B could throw off a gpa.

Thankfully we all grow beyond those school years. You can tell who the way above average/gifted people are just by the way they quickly problem solve in the mundane world. You know who you/they are. You can tell in the workplace who handles tasks most easily, creatively…

All that said it is a good thing to have grades. They do show learned material and willingness to put in the work needed. They do not show how much effort was required however. The advantage the more gifted have is that they can do more with less effort- there are exceedingly few jobs that require tippy top brain power.

On a roll. We note the gifted who excel in business but usually not the scientists, artists et al who do not make money but do contribute a lot to our improved lives. Such is life.

@wis75

I agree. All As in college means, IMO, student didn’t try grad courses or unfamiliar areas of study or stretch in some way. And while GPA certainly matters, straight As - a 4.0 - seems like a standard not worth reaching for in college, to me.

At the high school level things are very different in terms of options and flexibility, but rigor is officially recognized by many HS in weighting, and by colleges which do look for students who took harder courses.

Totally agree. These people often miss the benchmark for success often espoused on CC that everything is about ROI on that college investment in terms of salary, and yet contribute so much to society.

Or sometimes off-the-charts brilliant in everything s/he tries (very rare).

However, it matters a lot to medical and top-rank law schools, and therefore to pre-med and pre-law students. Perhaps the medical and top-rank law schools are hoping for off-the-charts brilliant in everything applicants, but they may be getting more ordinary good students who have mastered the art of grade grubbing and tactical course selection for “easy A” grades.

Indeed med schools may be getting those kinds of students to a degree, but they also take lots of -indeed mostly - students with sub-4.0 gpas.
http://www.mcattestscores.com/usmedicalschoolsmcatscoresGPA.html

At a glance, it seems a typical average cGPA for accepted med students is 3.7-8. These are high cGPAs but they are aren’t 4.0. Only 7 schools on that list have average cGPAs of 3.9-something. And obviously if that’s the average, they take students below.

These kids are definitely getting some Bs.

I think we all know MCAT is very important, plus experience and volunteering and recs and everything else that goes into med school admissions which are, after all, holistic.

I don’t believe the point of the article is encouraging lower grades but encouraging students to take on risk and accept the possible grade consequences for the long-term life benefit of growth and resilience:

The author is concerned about students who play it safe with grades by avoiding intellectual risk and who crumble at the first sign of failure:

He’s concerned about how this fragility plays out in the workplace for companies and in life for those who fear failure and play it safe at all costs. He’s not denying that there are A students who have also learned the right lessons; he’s arguing that we’re producing too many who haven’t, who’ve joined “the cult of perfectionism” chasing grades rather than worthier outcomes.

For too many students, anything less than an A is a disappointment at best, a failure at worst. Even here on CC, we have a long-running thread on colleges for the B student suggesting that those students are in a separate class from those just one grade above them. It reminds me of the Seinfeld routine about the curtain between first class and the rest of the plane: “Maybe if you’d worked a little harder…”

I think college is too late for this lament. Much earlier, we need to make it safe for kids to fail, to define failure properly and put it in its proper perspective. Repeated failure produces resilience, and resilience is key to health and success. We need to change our dialogue so that our kids become resilient, learning to embrace failure (and Bs and Cs) on their way to success. That’s the message at the heart of this “get a B” article.

Last year, on a thread dealing with “failure” and the ills of perfectionism, I posted about how our son’s high school is trying to deal with this issue. The school takes the fear-of-failure issue very seriously and has been studying its causes and effects for several years. A committee was set up to consider ways in which the school could purposefully stretch students to take the risks that would help them develop the grit and resilience necessary to put failure into its proper perspective so they could move beyond its debilitating limits. What started this investigation was what a separate endeavor had reported back to the school in its mission to find out what 21st century companies are looking for in young employees. The committee spent time at Apple and other leading-edge companies and found that academic success was not high on the list of what made for a compelling employee, instead resilience—the ability to see failure as a necessary part of finding solutions and to forge ahead confidently after each setback—was key. The companies certainly were looking for bright employees, but they require those employees to be able to embrace failure regularly as a spur to success. They’ve seen too many paper ponies contribute too little lasting value. The committee found that these companies were struggling as hard to find a reliable way to recognize this trait in applicants as our son’s school was finding a way to instill it.

The school already understood the grade grind and college rat race as it’s been in that business a long time. All its incoming students test high on the SSAT entrance exam and have top grades; it’s a cherry-picked student body on the incoming end and a very polished group on the graduating end. By definition, though, all of these high-achieving students will find themselves in the lower tiers of the class at some time during their years at the school, guaranteed. That first grade report is generally a shock to all as there is no grade inflation (it’s straight-scale, no makeups or curves or test corrections, etc.), and 50% of those “perfect” kids find themselves in the bottom half of the class right out of the gate. It’s a paradigm shift for many, including the parents, but understanding where the bar is set and learning that you will not always clear it is the first step on the path to resilience. That lesson is just embedded in the way these schools are set up. Dealing healthfully with that lesson is the tricky part.

What the school has tried to do is shift the conversation about the definition of failure. They talk about it with students a lot. They ask them what they would attempt if they knew they could not fail, and they set up opportunities for students to try those things and take shots at subjects and activities, often sports, where the student has no prior experience. They believe that high school should be a safe time to experience trial and error, to examine what falling short means, and to discuss and take to heart the valuable lessons learned when performance lacks and where just getting up one more time may take them. The funny thing is that the students respond eagerly to these challenges and find relief in the discussions, but it’s often the parents who worry that such experiments are too costly in the current grade and college race. I’m guessing the school has a bigger challenge there.

This school does not have it all figured out, but it is changing its culture and its dialogue about success and failure and what it means to be truly educated and what the life stakes really are. It is making a serious institutional effort to enable students to take risks, fall short, dust themselves off, and look forward to the next attempt. I have been listening to their progress through parent meetings during our time there then e-mails and articles in the school bulletin and newspaper later. Most importantly, I’ve seen what this culture produced in our son from timid, risk-averse all-A ninth-grader to confident, self-aware less-than-perfect senior. I marveled that he took low grades (even a D, folks) in stride and counted how many more tests and assessments he had in that class to prove himself—not get an A, but prove himself–to himself. He also came to the school unfit with no sports experience at all. The school’s message made it safe for him to try something as relentless as crew, struggle mightily at the bottom of the heap, but with encouragement and perspective make it to the top of the varsity roster by senior year. He “failed” in the classroom and on the water over and over and over but, each time, the dialogue focused on what he wanted to achieve and how each failure meant one step closer to getting there or, at least, getting to his personal best. Failure isn’t about ability; it’s about giving up. Success is getting up and trying again. That was the relentless message.

As to the concern that encouraging these risks can be too costly in the current college race, the school also does a very good job at helping students (and parents) understand that a great high school education, not any particular college result, is what they are all about; when the high school education is stellar and the student is resilient, college will take care of itself. When students and parents understand that there are scores and scores of fine colleges and every one of their students will end up at one of them, students can relax and take those risks that instill resilience and arm them best for success, however they define it.

And I’ll add here that those students who take this resilience with them to college are the ones best equipped to make major contributions to the companies that hire them and to the world at large, but this message must be instilled much earlier than college.

Ok but the article (and the one on valedictorians) make so many generalizations and miss a lot of other factors that make someone a Jobs e.g. random things, being at the right place at the right time, luck, that they really shouldn’t be taken too seriously. And Apple has a lot more 4.0s than 2.5s, that’s for sure. Look, I’d rather my doctor do well in classes like organic chemistry or civil engineers do well in mechanics classes but hey, if people want to see a doctor that failed a class that describes how the body works or trust a civil engineer that took a risk by playing a sport, but failed a class, to build a bridge, go for it.

Calling these articles puff pieces is an insult to puff pieces, if I may borrow from A Fished Called Wanda.

I think it’s interesting to base our perceptions on pre-med and pre-law. Both jobs often turn out to just be professional grinds having more to do with emotional intelligence or technical ability than with creative intellect. I’ve had doctors say outrageously dumb things to me to the point where I just can’t believe they went through medical school. One doctor told me once that there was “nothing” under the tongue. I mean, if you own a body you can feel your own salivary ducts there.

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My really smart friend who got nearly all As at MIT was curious about law school, so he went to a top evening law school and easily managed to graduate in top 5% while working full time even though he wasn’t a great writer. He decided not to practice law because he found it wasn’t challenging for him mentally and was mainly a paper pushing.

I don’t think it’s a matter of a doctor going to med school with a 2.5 GPA vs. one going with a 4.0. Note: My daughter is not premed so my perceptions are based only on what I am told based on her friends’ experiences and on those of my friends whose children are hoping for med school. I’ve also read a bit on cc that leaves me concerned.

There are those who regularly counsel kids to make sure to go to a school where they will be at the top of the cohort so that they can earn that 4.0. There are those who make sure to take the hardest required classes over the summer as a standalone class, often at an “easier” school, again, in order to protect that GPA. My daughter’s school openly discourages this practice warning students that it can create an impression of avoiding the hardest classes at the school or suggesting that it can’t be handled along with other challenging classes. There are premed students who research and make sure that the non-premed classes are all guaranteed to yield an A. I know a few kids who went far above and beyond and took rigorous classes in addition to the premed classes-physical chemistry and a high level CS class that even CS majors avoid despite the potential hit to the GPA, for example. I’d rather have those kids as my future docs! To me, this displays a flexibility and strength of ego and intellect that bodes well for the future practice of medicine (or law or engineering…) If the med schools really just look at the GPA and go no further to evaluate rigor or cohort, I’m not sure we’re doing anyone any favors, especially future patients.

I’d rather have a doctor whose undergrad GPA was strong but imperfect but who showed the ability to tackle challenging material over one whose 4.0 was strategized.

Regarding pre-med, then you need to change the system. Most future docs don’t have a 4.0 BTW, but they do need a great GPA including notoriously difficult classes (at any college) AND oodles of extra curriculars, so they aren’t just in their rooms studying. They’re showing they can “do it all” while still getting good grades. While folks (like me) give them hints on how others have successfully navigated the route to get there, they still have to put the time and effort in. No school or Prof does that for them. There is no “easy” path to med school in the US. (Taking hard classes over the summer is frowned upon BTW, so whoever is offering that advice best reconsider.)

One can also argue that learning how to best utilize the options they have in order to reach their desired goal shows intelligence and creative thinking - pre-med or not. When I get asked for college advice, the first thing I ask a student is what their goal is. Then we brainstorm how to get there. Most students aren’t pre-med, but that doesn’t eliminate the brainstorming part. There is no single path that is correct for every student.

My daughter wasn’t pre-med or pre-law and didn’t have any friends who were. Her college didn’t accept any credits from other colleges once you started (so no doing classes at easier schools), they had very strict rules for pass/fail (not allowed for majors, minors, and core requirements), and had a pretty strong core. So, I didn’t see lots of gaming for GPAs. (I had seen lots of GPA gaming at her HS.)

I hate to see posts from students on reddit etc. asking which class is the easiest to complete their major or meet a core requirement. I am a strong believer in taking classes that interest you or that you consider fun or that give you skills which are useful in life. But I also believe that you need to balance your classes each semester (by mixing types of classes and difficulties - don’t take all classes that require papers or all classes with labs, etc.)

@kiddie, I completely agree. My daughter is not pre-med or pre-law either and she was much freer to take the classes she wanted, without considering GPA. Her school is pretty strict about taking credits from other schools too and the opportunity for gaming is limited-not impossible but limited. I also agree that it’s important to balance demands and types of classes, at least as much as possible within your chosen path. Mine is doing a joint major that involves both math and humanities so she’s had the best of all worlds in that regard.

Seriously though, this is not at all about my own kids, none of whom decided to move onto grad school or professional school, and none of whom is in a field where it’s necessary to do so. I’m looking at a larger issue that I keep seeing and this is my own personal reaction to the use of rankings and their effect on professional schools and GPA. I fear that it’s distorted a system where now GPA is all-important, regardless of context.

@Creekland, yes, that’s my point, I think the system is off and it’s rewarding, at least at times, the wrong candidates. I think this is true for both med school and law school.

Yes, the premed classes are difficult. I don’t know that they are all notoriously difficult. Ask an engineering student how they feel about it. From what I understand the hardest premed classes are no more difficult than engineering classes or tough math classes, both of which impose more deflated grading. I keep hearing that it’s harder for those kids to apply to top law schools because even with a high GPA in their disciplines, they can’t measure up against those who have taken classes more certain to yield that all important 4.0 (or close to it)-even with strong LSATs. Again, I question a system that doesn’t delve more deeply into the classes listed on the transcript and the school itself. I’d think it would be more advantageous to all of us to have a breadth of talent guarding our privacy and understanding the digital world.

I also have to point out that the difficulty of these classes is not the same from school to school. If it were all the same, why the consistent advice to choose the school where you’ll be at the top?

I’ve met a couple young people recently who did a master’s related to health (public health maybe?) in order to prove they could handle med school despite so so premed grades. One of them was the most thoughtful med student I’d met. He’d gone to a challenging small liberal arts college. The best doctors I’ve had never majored in premed but did all their prereqs post-bac. My mom’s doctor did Russian Studies undergrad. I have heard from a top genetics researcher than it’s hard to choose the best thinker these days for research fellow positions. Inevitably the committees just choose the highest GPA. He’s disgusted with it all and I don’t blame him.

My daughter just completed a computer math class that most people just avoid as long as possible. She passed on the first try which was a Big Deal. Most people dropped out. Most of those who stuck with it were repeating the class. She said she should have dropped it, too. I asked her why she didn’t. “Oh, because I LOVED it!”. I’d much rather that be her path but it’s dismaying how much emphasis there is on high grades and not on learning. Maybe she’ll repeat it for a higher grade but her prof told her not to because she understood all the concepts.

@3girls3cats I’m married to an engineer and am a physics major myself, so have taken a fair number of traditional hard classes.

What makes pre-med classes notoriously difficult? Organic chem is one that comes to mind in that category. It’s partially due to the amount of knowledge needed and partially because students don’t always find the class “up their alley” as one tends to do when one has chosen a major due to loving the subject vs a class one has to have. Then there’s the competition for high grades and some schools limit their availability.

This however, is totally different than the caution regarding choice of schools. That’s due to the baseline of incoming freshmen. Not all high schools are equal in depth. Not all classes are equal in depth. A teacher can only teach to their class in high school or college. Colleges with the majority of students entering with high stats can (and usually do) base their classes on a higher incoming foundation. If a student goes there without it, they can still put more work in to make up for it and succeed, but their brains usually don’t think that way. Instead they tend to think they can’t do it, because “everyone else already knows X and I don’t.” They think they’re dumb and talk themselves out of it - then couple that with college being new and so many “fun” things to do instead of studying and it is often a recipe for disaster. If they start in a class where they are well matched or even toward the higher end they tend to give themselves credit and feel they can do it.

When one actually gets to med school (I have a son there now), they teach you everything you need to know from the beginning. It’s helpful to bring knowledge in with you, but not required. It doesn’t matter a hoot if the Bio 101 class you took freshman year was a very in depth one from a Top U or a more typical one from many other colleges. It matters that you showed you were able to master the class while still doing oodles of other things.

Med schools pick students from all sorts of colleges because students from various areas of life go to all sorts of colleges. They want to produce doctors that fit in with all areas of our country. They just want the top from each of those areas, so select accordingly (and use the MCAT as an equalizer across schools). Med school is tough. A pre-med shouldn’t be punished due to their lack of foundation from high school, so it’s wise to align according to ability rather than saying one must keep up with those who have been exposed to more from the beginning.

FWIW, I’ve seen students under challenge themselves picking an undergrad - one of my own son’s peers did this and regrets it. He chose a “lesser” school due to the full ride they offered him, but he was bored in college. Both he and my guy are in med schools now, but my guy picked a school that matched his ability and enjoyed his journey to get there far more (still Top 25%, but he’d have been that at almost any college he chose). I know a fair number of non pre-meds who also wish they had chosen a college that matched them better, both high and low.

A degree can be gotten from anywhere, but the journey can definitely differ.

Not all Summa Cum Laude students get their award due to ditching tough classes or tough schools. My med school lad took a whole extra year (offered tuition free at his school) just to study a topic 100% unrelated to his majors (2 majors, 2 minors in 4 years - then the extra year studying something totally different). The program is offered for students who enjoy learning just for the sake of learning. His school has more who want to participate than slots available (it’s competitive). Many of the kids graduate with Latin Honors. They just like learning, it comes easily to them, and they’re still creative and fun humans very active in all sorts of activities. Hard to believe, no?

Despite his “shortcoming” of getting top grades in all he took on (no B in sight - high school or college), he’s going to make an awesome doctor and has been loved everywhere he’s volunteered or worked up to this point.

My other two lads are nowhere near Latin Honors graduates and are still incredibly loved at their jobs and places they volunteer. The two characteristics don’t go hand in hand. All three are wonderful, successful, adult human beings. There’s no need to diss the top achiever academically. It reeks of jealousy TBH.

Med schools really DO look at more than GPA. If they didn’t, they’d have a bunch of 4.0 average GPAs. They do not, looking at the list i posted in [url=http://talk.qa.collegeconfidential.com/discussion/comment/21855199/#Comment_21855199]#44[/url] in response to @ucbalumnus .

“Getting straight A’s requires conformity.” So what? Yes, you have to do the work, do it properly, meet expectations like turning it in on time. That’s an asset. Both in college and later, in the workforce. Many top kids can take academic risks, devote themselves, and still have a life. Taking risks/doing well, does not suggest everything else in the life drops by the wayside. Nor that a kid is utterly boring. Gads, I hate this sweeping dismissal of A kids as robots. Getting all A grades doesn’t mean the kid didn’t take risks. It will mean he or she mastered those risks.

He complains about the kids who get bent out of shape by grade hiccups. This shouldn’t be intrepeted as ALL top performers being emotionally off or suffering faulty thinking.

Nor is a straight A average required for med or law school. You can probably find the info about the average gpa for med applicants from JHU. (So little info is available on the reality.)

We’ve got to quit referring to Deresiewicz as authoritative, without understanding how his views are received. Look further into comments and reactions by qualified folks, re: his proclamations.

“…think most students (and maybe today’s parents) have never seen a situation where the grading is honest.” Wow, what substantiates that? Instead, I think some have no idea just how powerful some (not all) of these top performing kids really are. THEY aren’t taking shortcuts or relying on grade inflation. They aren’t shorting activities by just counting hours, any hours. And they can think.

Bill Gates, btw, didn’t get where he got because he dropped out of college. Don’t forget his mother’s help, with her connections to IBM.

My opinion might boil down to “Failure is no measure of success.”

It’s one of the highest cGPA averages in the country… 3.92 according to the link I posted. Only 8 US med schools have a 3.9-something average.
http://www.mcattestscores.com/usmedicalschoolsmcatscoresGPA.html

From the AAMC, med school matriculants (so, only successful applicants). 2017 and 2018 figures.



GPA Science Mean              3.64       3.65

GPA Non-Science Mean          3.79       3.8

GPA Total Mean                3.71       3.72


^ there’s room for some Bs. Definitely more than one. I’d guess if med schools wanted all 4.0 gpas they could have them.

https://www.aamc.org/download/321494/data/factstablea16.pdf

I was reacting to articles like this one: https://www.forbes.com/sites/markcohen1/2017/07/24/wanted-stem-graduates-for-the-legal-industry-and-some-reasons-theyre-not-applying/#5f14a322b729

“Why are law schools not doing a better job enticing STEM graduates—particularly since hard science applicants have the highest LSAT scores among college majors? **Some law school Deans point the blame, at least in part, on the US News rankings that accord equal weight to grade-point average (GPA) and LSAT scores for ranking purposes. The rub, the Academy says, is that science GPA’s tend to be lower than other majors, so law schools are ‘penalized’ for admitting STEM majors with lower GPA’s. ** Ranking is important, especially in a declining law school market. Still, the focus should be on what the legal industry and its consumers need: lawyers with new skillsets that include fluency in technology’s role in legal delivery, basic business competency, process and project management, collaboration, social media fluency, high emotional intelligence (‘EQ’ or ‘people skills’), and cultural awareness.”

I have 3 degrees in engineering fields and have also done the pre-med track. I’ve never really understood why pre-med classes have a reputation for being “notoriously difficult.” Most pre-med required classes are basic underclassmen foundation classes – the kind of classes that are not major specific. Some are not much more advanced than HS AP classes and /or mostly repeat AP material. At the HYPSM… college where I attended, most pre-meds took the easiest and least rigorous versions of these classes – the kind of classes that would be recommended for persons scoring lowest on the placement exams or that humanities majors that were not really STEM/analytical people might choose to fulfill the university’s STEM-related graduation requirements. Engineering students and top students considering the major would generally choose more advanced versions of the classes. Organic chemistry is an exception, which is more of a sophomore level class, rather than a class taken by freshmen that is similar to AP classes. It can require different ways of thinking than the usual plug and chug or memorization that many are used to.

Maybe the “notoriously difficult” reputation has to do with the classes mostly having objective grading based on questions where there is a right answer and a wrong answer, rather than subjective papers, such that almost all STEM is “notoriously difficult”? Or perhaps it has more to do with competition from other pre-meds, beliefs along the lines as only xx% of students can get A’s, and you have to be one of those xx% to get in to med school?