What to ask on college visits for a Chemical Engineering major

College Majors Engineering Majors
21

Probably would not require a visit (dig around on the web sites), but you and she can check each school for which of the following is true:

a. Admitted directly to the major.
b. Admitted to undeclared or pre-engineering, but declaring major is a formality if one passes (C grades and/or 2.00 GPA) the prerequisites.
c. Admitted to undeclared or pre-engineering, but declaring major requires a high GPA or competitive secondary admission process.

Note that some schools may do both (a) and © (i.e. direct admit for some students, undeclared with secondary admission later for others who originally applied to the major).

Also, if she may change major, check whether the potential new major(s) require a secondary admission process. Note that at some schools, some majors may be declared or changed to easily because they have plenty of unused capacity, but others may be oversubscribed and require a higher GPA or competitive secondary admission process.

In addition, check if there are any grade requirements higher than C or GPA requirements higher than 2.00 to stay in or graduate with the major.

22

CWRU is very flexible - in fact, admission is to the university and not a specific college within the university. It was one of the reasons we were looking closely at this school.

Other factors:

Northeastern has a co-op based program.
UIUC is a top 5 CS dept so if you are not admitted directly into the program as a freshman it would be very difficult to transfer into it.
Some have more urban feel (Northeastern, CWRU, UW-Madison), some are more campus town (UIUC, Purdue (West Lafayette is not much of a college town). Lehigh not close to a major city and in a not so great town.
Size - big 10s are considerably bigger than CWRU (not much for sports) and Lehigh
Greek life - flavor varies by college

Did she consider UMN-TC - it is highly rated for Chem E. and she could easily apply for admission to the CS program after being admitted to either College of Engineering or College of Liberal Arts (need a 3.2 gpa after completing some required course work).

23

I would check to see if they have active Society of Women Engineers chpts. Have her contact the schools’ chpts and ask members about their experiences at that school. I would also want to know about what sorts of hands on experiences their UGs are having on campus and whether or not co-ops are encouraged. Co-OP’s are a great way to start to understand job choices in industry. (Fwiw, to reiterate what someone upthread said, if she wants to work in industry, a BS in. ChE is the best path. A grad degree is not at all typical unless she wants to go into research. I would stay away from a chem UG with plans for grad school in chemE.)
.

24

What are her plans post undergrad? Job or Grad school or does she know yet? Which schools has she visited and where has she felt most comfortable? Is she interested in a co-op or does she want to get through her degree in 4 years? Does she want to research? Is she OK swimming as a club sport or does she want to be part of a varsity team?

My experience of course is with Purdue. You are admitted to FYE (it sounds as if that is what has occurred) and the beginning of the second semester apply to your first three preferences. ChemE normally requires over a 3.2 gpa. The Computer Science major is in the College of Science, however, they also have a Computer Engineering degree within the College of Engineering. How they differ I do not know. The only thing I can say about Purdue that might be different from the other B1G schools is that it feels like an engineering school with other majors rather than a large school with an engineering major. The engineering department is in the center of campus and about 25-30% of incoming freshmen are engineering majors. Both Purdue and UIUC will have a lot of foreign students (around 15-18%), mostly Asian and Indian. UIUC is more expensive as a rule than Purdue though they do guarantee tuition will not increase from what it is freshman year. Purdue has not increased tuition since 2012 and have kept room and board the same as well. It’s not a guarantee merely a year to year thing. Do expect a $2050 premium for engineering/computer science majors at Purdue

Fit is a funny thing. Our D knew immediately she liked Purdue yet she did not like UIUC. She liked Northwestern and CMU but wasn’t crazy about CWRU (ironically she did not apply to CMU or Pitt). She was declined at NU and accepted at Case. In my opinion Case is this island of academics, art and medical facilities with more grad students than undergrads. It is connected to Cleveland by the umbilical cord that is the train and bus service. The students will likely be more generally academically inclined than those at the larger schools. If you haven’t visited it would be great if you could. Good luck. This part of the angst will be over in about 3 months. :slight_smile:

25

@Ivvcsf "Which schools has she visited and where has she felt most comfortable?

She visited Tufts, Northeastern, Lehigh, Wisconsin, Illinois. Coincidentally, has not visited the two she has been admitted to: CWRU and Purdue.

She is planning to visit CWRU for admitted student days, and needs to visit Purdue also.

@Ivvcsf “Is she interested in a co-op or does she want to get through her degree in 4 years?”
She is somewhat interested, but would prefer to graduate in 4 years. Not sure whether the extra year is worth it for majors with better demand like Chem E or CS. Working to get summer internships could be possible too.

@Ivvcsf “Does she want to research?”
She is interested in research, and would like to try it, but it is not a primary focus for her at this point.

@Ivvcsf “Is she OK swimming as a club sport or does she want to be part of a varsity team?”
She would prefer Varsity swim, but is OK with a club sport. She has improved her swim times since I listed them before. Her 500 and 1000 freestyle times would be top two at Tufts or CWRU. Both coaches are interested. She also loves water polo and could probably play at the club level at a Big 10 school.

@Ivvcsf “You are admitted to FYE (it sounds as if that is what has occurred)”
Yes. That is correct.

@Ivvcsf “You are admitted to FYE (it sounds as if that is what has occurred) and the beginning of the second semester apply to your first three preferences. ChemE normally requires over a 3.2 gpa.”

Do you know what the average engineering gpa is? A 3.2 gpa sounds reasonable if the average engineering gpa is 3.4. It sounds high if the average is 2.8, for example. How difficult did your daughter find this?

Why do students need to list three preferences? If you make the hurdle, isn’t it automatic?

@singermom4 “UIUC is a top 5 CS dept”
To me, this is a minus. She applied to the College of Arts and Sciences because at Illinois, Chem E is oddly not even housed in the college of Engineering. It is anachronistically attached to the Chemistry department. If she wanted to minor in CS, or change to a CS major, it may not be possible.

I also have the impression that while the CS department seems to be highly ranked, their placement does not live up to that billing. While placement seems good, it does not appear to be better than the other schools on her list with less of a CS reputation. (We live in Illinois so I know some grads).

@Mom2aphysicsgeek " I would stay away from a chem UG with plans for grad school in theme.)"
She seems to have dropped that idea. She decided not to apply to Vassar because of the lack of an engineering major.

@Ivvscf “This part of the angst will be over in about 3 months.”

Thank you everyone for giving sharing thoughts and ideas for her to consider. Any other thoughts would be appreciated. I really want to help her find the place where she will be the happy and successful.

26

Does she know what it is like to work inside a plant? I ask bc working with operators may be outside of any IRL experiences. (Maybe not…just something to consider. I know that I would struggle interacting with operators the way my husband and son do.) Both of them have worked with numerous co-op students, and some students (both male and female) lack realistic expectations about the realities of working in those industries’ plants. Co-oping is a great way to check out an industry that the student thinks they might want to work in without the complexities of it being their first job. (This is probably far more applicable to a career in chemE than CS.)

27

@Mom2aphysicsgeek “Does she know what it is like to work inside a plant?”

That is a good point. She likes math and science and making things, so she participated in two engineering summer programs and liked them both: UIUC and Notre Dame. The summer programs were very hands on, but she has not been exposed to a plant/blue collar environment, so getting internships or co-ops will be important. If she is not comfortable with the plant experience, CS may be a route to consider.

I appreciate the input. Some questions are not obvious to me because I am not an engineer. However, when you mention it, it does seem like an important question.

28

Definitely. What many kids fail to realize is that the education to become an engineer and the working life of an engineer are quite different. School is primarily about learning the theory (and the math/science underlying the theory), taught in well defined problems with answers and in problem set & projects that take at most a few weeks to finish. In industry tools exist to solve the equations done so laboriously by hand in college, projects often have goals that change over time and take time to complete (often years). A summer or semester in industry is an eye-opener. In fact if you know thru friends of friends or social groups anyone working in industry it might not be a bad idea for your D to have coffee with them to get an initial idea of what the working world is like.

If any of these programs offer a 5 year BS/MS for ChemE I would suggest leaning towards those. Most of the 1st 2 years of engineering education is taking standard math & science, its only the last 2 years that are predominantly engineering. You can see a fairly typical program on page 6 of http://www.engr.wisc.edu/cmsdocuments/cbe-undergrade-handbook-2009-v7.pdf (the reason they are similar elsewhere is due to ABET requirements). Getting a MS adds essentially 50% more engineering specific education, increasing one’s value in the workforce. Of course it is critical to do coop and internship programs along the way to make sure the career is actually what you want!

Lastly, while I have no crystal ball as to what the future holds for either CS or ChemE, its worth considering that jobs in engineering (less so for CS) tend to cluster in a few areas. If you’re in a city where there are only 1 or 2 employers that hire ChemE’s it is not so easy to change jobs if you aren’t happy there once you’re settled in and have kids in school, a spouse working in the area etc. Same if they decide to close the plant.

29

“Do you know what the average engineering gpa is? A 3.2 gpa sounds reasonable if the average engineering gpa is 3.4. It sounds high if the average is 2.8, for example. How difficult did your daughter find this?”

I believe that average engineering GPA is around 2.8. I will say this that Purdue is more likely to give students, especially instate, opportunities that other universities might not. Others talking about Purdue on other threads in the past have indicated that Purdue’s engineering GPAs are kind of bifurcated with a group in the 2.5 range and those above 3.5. Many of the students come in more prepared than others.

My D is half way through her junior year but is doing a 5 session co-op. She’ll take 5 years but graduate with 22 months of work experience plus it has helped keep her from having college debt. Her current GPA is 3.83. I believe she had about a 3.85 after her freshman year (B in Calc 3 she skipped 1 and 2, later she had a B in Thermodynamics). She had a couple of advantages. First she was able to skip freshman physics as she scored a 5 on both sections of her Physics C exam. She also was able to skip Chem 115 her first semester. She went into the school with 42 credit hours allowing her to take no more than 14 academic credits in any semester (she plays viola in the orchestra so that is 2 additional credit hours per semester and an easy A). She had to change the way she prepared for classes and spend more time collaborating with other students and asking question of TAs during her recitations. This last semester she made it a point to get to know her professors better. She feels she is above average in most of her classes but not near the top as she was in HS.

"Why do students need to list three preferences? If you make the hurdle, isn’t it automatic?

For some majors, Biomedical engineering specifically, they have a cap for how many students they take. The GPA can go up depending on the quality of the class. If a lot of students choose a specific major the height of the hurdle may rise.

30

@mikemac “If any of these programs offer a 5 year BS/MS for ChemE I would suggest leaning towards those.”
That is a good idea, I will add that question to the list.

“jobs in engineering (less so for CS) tend to cluster in a few areas.”
Thank you for pointing that out. The better she thinks all of this through early on, the better her experience is going to be. I can’t see her moving away from engineering, but I would not be surprised if her engineering interest area changed over time. This would seem to be a plus for CS. CS jobs are easier to find in almost any city.

31

Purdue FYE is described here:

https://engineering.purdue.edu/ENE/Academics/FirstYear

Included is a link to how students enter majors:

https://engineering.purdue.edu/ENE/Academics/FirstYear/T2M

Changing into computer science at Purdue is described here:

https://www.cs.purdue.edu/undergraduate/codo.html

UIUC’s computer science major is highly competitive to change into:

https://cs.illinois.edu/prospective-students/undergraduates/transfer-students/transferring-another-university-illinois-major

32

@Ivvcsf “I believe that average engineering GPA is around 2.8.”

That suggests to me that a 3.2 is probably around the top quartile, which suggests to me that there are a whole lot of students who get to Purdue and can’t get admitted to the major.

Her grades and test scores are above average for Purdue, so I think she could do it, but I dislike putting her under pressure to focus heavily on grades. Personally, I would rather see her be able to be a slightly above average engineering gpa and get involved in women in engineering or other engineering clubs, activities, or research where she has the opportunity for more hands on experience, instead of worrying about whether she has an A, A-, B+ or a B. I have heard what you mentioned, that Purdue offers students who get actively involved some excellent opportunities.

However, it isn’t my decision. I am happy as long as it isn’t a surprise to her after she gets there. If that is the way she wants to go, of course I will support her 100%.

Thank you very much for explaining how it works. I appreciate it.

33

@singermom4 “CWRU is very flexible - in fact, admission is to the university and not a specific college within the university. It was one of the reasons we were looking closely at this school.”

I have learned that this is a confusing term, and people use it differently. I think that at CWRU, like MIT, it means that admitted students are free to choose any major they wish. In contrast, when Wisconsin says that “admission is to the university and not a specific college” it means that although you have been admitted to Wisconsin, you have not yet been admitted to a major and still have to do that.

In my mind, that is a plus for CWRU. Her concerns about CWRU seem to be 1.) that she has heard from some of her friends that the students there are “socially awkward” and 2.) she knows that CWRU has a lot of strong students and that could make Varsity swimming more difficult to balance with her course load. She wants to do it, but worries at the same time. lol

I think that there are plenty of students for her to find the right group of girls, even if there are a few odd students wandering around. We haven’t been there but it seems to me that what matters if finding her peeps. That is true at any college.

“Did she consider UMN-TC - it is highly rated for Chem E. and she could easily apply for admission to the CS program after being admitted to either College of Engineering or College of Liberal Arts (need a 3.2 gpa after completing some required course work).”

She did not. We discussed, it but I don’t recall why she did not apply. Did you or a family member attend CWRU?

Thank you for your insights!

34

My S was accepted to CWRU with a generous scholarship last year. He is double majoring in Economics and CS. CWRU is particularly flexible for double majors as they do not have gen ed requirements.

It ended up in his top three but did not make it as a final choice partly because of your first concern. In fact, one girl he went to grade school with is attending there and she says she is the most outgoing person on her floor (and she is an introvert). I think CWRU is attracting a more diverse mix of students but seems to still be dominated by the image of being less social (albeit cooperative as a study environment) and with low interest for sports teams there is inevitably a lower level of school spirit. Additionally the workload appears to be relatively very heavy. We found the University of Rochester similar in many respects (flexible curriculum) but with what appeared to be a more cohesive study body (possibly because it has a more traditional campus layout and so it’s easier to gather for events)) - so that was his 2nd choice.

S ultimately chose UMN-TC and is enjoying it very much. He has many Chem E friends - tough but excellent program there. Also UMN was very generous with AP credits (he started with 33 so technically as a sophomore) which also helps with completing a double major in 4 years.

35

At umich, everybody goes in undeclared and can only declare if they complete certain course requirements, have a minimum GPA of 2.0, and are in good academic standing. Some other schools may allow direct admission into a major.

However, because every engineering major has the same core requirements (math, physics, chem), a student usually won’t have a problem graduating on time as long as they decide on a major by the end of freshman year. I’m pretty confident that this will be the case at any engineering school. As long as a student is in good academic standing and has a satisfactory GPA, then they can change majors at any time.

It is very important for an engineering student to choose a major in which they are capable of achieving at least a 3.0. Often times, a 2.0 major and cumulative GPA is all that is required to get a degree, but most engineering jobs require at least a 3.0. Many companies automatically throw out a resume if the GPA is below a 3.0 or if it is not included at all, thus one with an engineering degree and a sub-3.0 GPA will have no greater of a chance at getting a well paid job than somebody with a liberal arts degree.

36

@umcoe16 “a sub-3.0 GPA will have no greater of a chance at getting a well paid job than somebody with a liberal arts degree.”

What you are saying seems to make a lot of sense to me.

What makes no sense to me is why, if that is the case, a great school like Purdue would keep the GPA of the average engineering student at a 2.8. It would seem to me that if you kept the average at 3.3 or 3.4, then it would be reasonable to expect students to make every effort to maintain a 3.0. However, that is a mathematical impossibility if they keep the average at 2.8.

37

Under 3.0 will not absolutely prevent someone from getting a job, but will make it harder, particularly in an economic or industry downtown, since 3.0 is supposedly a common cut off GPA for popular employers when they decide whom to interview on campus.

Also, lower GPA students may have more difficulty answering employers’ technical questions in interviews.

38

First, you’ll find a lot of public universities have an Office of Institutional Planning and Research (OIR) that publish extensive data on each college. Purdue has a very good one. (they call it “Office of Institutional Research, Assessment and Effectiveness”).

http://www.purdue.edu/oir/

I love playing with the “student migration starburst” diagram…

https://www.purdue.edu/datadigest/

The UIC OIR:

http://www.oir.uic.edu/

Some of the OIR’s publish GPA info, most publish common data set info, post graduation surveys, etc. It’s worth checking out.

A word of caution around comparing GPA’s. GPA isn’t only a measure of how rigorous the program is, but also of student quality. Purdue has a very rigorous program (which is one reason it has such a good reputation), but it’s also fairly flexible with the students it admits to the program. It’s a combination of the two that would lead to the average GPA. Two colleges may have different average GPA’s, but your daughter could find that the two programs have the same level of rigor, and she would earn the earn the same GPA at both.

39

" Purdue has a very rigorous program (which is one reason it has such a good reputation), but it’s also fairly flexible with the students it admits to the program. It’s a combination of the two that would lead to the average GPA. Two colleges may have different average GPA’s, but your daughter could find that the two programs have the same level of rigor, and she would earn the earn the same GPA at both."

@Gator88NE You put that very well. I’ve tried in the past to get that point across but my attempts have always been long winded and I think confusing.

40

I would skip the idea of going to a liberal arts college if she has a real interest in engineering. I am not sure why she would fixate on ChemE now, the other engineering fields all have a lot to offer too. Material science is a good field … and has good starting salaries … and is less plant and process oriented (more below) Material science and ChemE are very different fields. So part of the tours should be meeting with both departments, seeing what they are doing, and maybe guiding your daughter to one or the other. Material science is probably harder to find a good program.

I really don’t think there is an engineering degree that does not have good prospects. Sure there are more mechanical and electrical jobs, but there are also 5-10x the number of graduates. Chem E is somewhere below that

I would also consider that last time the oil market dropped out, Chem E was hit hard (but that was also in the 80s when off-shoring became popular).

Case’s material science facilities are outstanding … and their accepted student weekends are actually fun and informative. While the workload is hard, most or all engineering schools are hard. Nerd quotient is not a real concern, all the kids I have met are out-going and fun … but smart.

I assume there is a merit scholarship that brings Case into affordable range … or that is not an issue. No shame in doing cost-benefit analysis if there is large difference in cost between schools.

Also, there is a lot of good info on research and other interests of the college and specific departments and faculty on their websites. This may help select the right schools to visit.

Case’s open houses and admitted student days both had good info on both majors. Both departments have a freshman seminar. Matl science does not take OChem … YMMV. There is a overnight stay option too.

Manufacturing floors or plants … well, women can do well there, I have spent a lot of time in these environments. Actually I recently recalled my first summer job was on a manufacturing plant floor - honestly, most of the other people while not “engineers” are good people and will be friendly enough if your daughter is comfortable with them. And, the good news is that years of sexual harassment training means that people behave … or else (seriously, other than a bit of excess interest from men older than you … it is just fine). I would rule out working for a company if I saw any weird behavior during say my interview … but again, you have to realize that people can sue for hostile work environment … so it is not really there.

Reason to not go liberal arts, chem degree - Without any engineering classes in college, getting into a masters program in ChemE would be really difficult and graduating in even 2 years might be a stretch. A general engineering degree with some extra Chem (Org, maybe PChem) would be preferable, at least you are doing engineering type problems and have some experience with engineering in general. Chem E undergraduate studies include a lot of, well, ChemE classes like process engineering, design of chemical plants, and Chem Es have a lot of ways of looking at things, stirred tank reactors, etc, that you need to pick up as an undergrad. I am not sure about material science, would have to have a very strong undergraduate program in solids. Even statics and dynamics come to mind as must knows for engineers, esp. material science.