what to do for high school -- AP? IB? Homeschool?

Parents Forum
1

<p>I wasn't sure where to post this, but since this board is more active and most of you parents have alot of experience at this -- I decided to post here.</p>

<p>My son, a freshman, is trying so hard to decide what to do for high school and he really doesn't know what to do -- we are looking for some input from others.</p>

<p>He is very intelligent, good scores on tests, very hard-working and considers himself very academic. he wants to be in a position to apply to very selective schools (both HYP and other top tier schools) but knows that competition is harsh and there are no guarantees (we have discussed this on numerous occasions). He has good EC's (Boy Scouts, Civil Air Patrol, Aikido, Great Books club -- all for a long time and will continue, all with leadership, etc).</p>

<p>Here is his dilemma. he was homeschooled the past 3 years, this year he is attending an online charter school. The current school offers no AP or honors classes, he does not like the solitary form of learning (it is all self-study) and does not want to continue (we will finish out the year). He is advanced in all humanities type classes, on track in math and science.</p>

<p>he has a few choices -- </p>

<p>he could attend the local IB school. It would mean changing his foreign language (he has 2 years of mandarin so far, and they only offer french, spanish and german). I am also questioning the quality of the IB program -- they offer few classes (the only HL humanities classes offered are History of the Americas and English) and most classes are offered at the lower levels. Also, when I checked the testing results, it didn't seem like the kids were testing as well as they should be. here is a link for the 2005 results -- other years were similiar -- <a href="http://www.d11.org/palmer/IB/PALMER%20IB%20Results%20May%202005%20Subject%20Averages.doc%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.d11.org/palmer/IB/PALMER%20IB%20Results%20May%202005%20Subject%20Averages.doc&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>this made us question the suitability of the program for him -- his first love is philosophy and world religions, he also enjoys most other social studies and literature. It didn't seem like those classes would be available to him at the IB program.</p>

<p>His other choice would be to attend community college classes (and university classes his junior and senior year). He already took one community college class (Intro to philosophy) and loved it. he recieved an A and enjoyed the class. He does not want to do anymore online classes -- he is craving the interaction of a learning community. </p>

<p>If we went the community college route, he would take community colleges in the same distribution as required by most selective colleges (4 years math, english, science, social studies and foreign language) and he could take AP tests when he finishes the appropriate course (I know that the quality of community colleges is sometimes in question).</p>

<p>Attending the local high school is not much of an option -- it is not a great school. he could take a few AP courses there -- but from looking at the testing results, they usually have no 5's, a few 4's and mostly 3's and 2's -- that is signalling to me that the teaching is not that great.</p>

<p>Our funds are very limited (I am in school full-time and my husband makes less than $30,000 a year) so a private school is not an option -- nor do I know any in the area.</p>

<p>If anyone has any suggestions, warnings, things I should check out -- I would appreciate any help. My son has also visited the board, but he feels intimidated and right now is just feeling like he should give up his dream.</p>

<p>thanks for the help!</p>

<p>stef</p>

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<p>I think you'll just get two types of responses to this question. </p>

<p>Basically, those who are in favor of homeschooling will say homeschool him. Those who are not in favor of homeschooling will say send him to school. </p>

<p>I think the "problems" that you outline are not unique. Probably most people making the decision between homeschool/school are looking at the same situation (mediocre schools etc.). </p>

<p>Either highschool or homeschool can be "enriched" with community college. So, that's sort of a non-issue.</p>

<p>Personally, I say -- send him to school. He sounds lonely for kids his own age and the normal growing up stuff! (And no one in community college wants to hang out with a highschool freshman.)</p>

3

<p>For those who don't fit in, going to a regular high school can be a lot worse than not going to school at all. But even if he does fit in and enjoy the social life at the regular high school, he will probably be bored to death academically.</p>

<p>I would advise the homeschool route of taking community college classes and moving to university level courses as soon as possible. It's true that he probably won't interact as much with his peers since they're so much older, but it's possible that he would make most of his friends through his various ECs.</p>

<p>BTW, I am not a parent, but I've been in your child's situation.</p>

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<p>Could your son reach a compromise and go to the local high school for some classes and take community college classes for others? Could the high school schedule accommodate the community college schedule? Would he have to take the full set of high school courses even if he were to take community college classes?</p>

<p>My S was advanced in some subjects and was allowed to take college classes. But, because by state law students were supposed to be in school throughout the school day and be in class, he had to take the required 7 high school classes per day on top of the college classes. In one year, he had 9 classes instead of the normal load of 7. This may not apply in your son's case, and if not, it would make his load more manageable. There are some high school graduation requirements that he could take at the high school such as PE and arts electives and thus have access to age peers and school-based ECs.<br>
He could also take the AP exams after finishing some of the college classes, but beware that college courses often do not follow the AP curriculum, so you and he would need to be very vigilant.</p>

<p>I do think my son enjoyed the company of his agemates as well as the college classes he took. It was a good compromise for my son; it might be available to yours.</p>

5

<p>Since he already is on an alternative type of path, I would go with continuing to do his own thing, taking the community college classes, and so on. The regular highschool options seem to not hold much appeal to you and S, so just keep on with your plan. It does seem like you do have a plan, just looking for support? Go for it! I'm not a homeschooling parent, but can definitely see the advantages in forging your own path.</p>

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<p>Marite $ Mstee have good points which I also endorse. </p>

<p>I would like to add that getting your child through HS also mean that he will probably leave your house sooner than later, he will be prepared for leaving but will you? </p>

<p>The socialization aspect is very very important and in my opinion is many times more valuable than just pure knowledge. As for IB, does he have to take the diploma route or can he take the certificate or just take the courses? IB is also a very difficult course to teach and is sometimes restrictive on the student and on the best of teachers. As for the IB/AP scores, I wouldn't worry about them either because the tests are not easy, and not every college place much weight for placement or even admissions. Getting through school faster sometimes is a not good idea.</p>

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<p>Also, consider asking the program you choose to be flexible, for example, the IB school, attend, but continue with Mandarin, instead of their offerings, either through community college or online, allowing him to pursue what he wants.</p>

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<p>thanks for the support so far! It does help to know that we aren't completely off base with our thoughts.</p>

<p>As far as looking for social interaction -- after homeschooling for three years (and he tends to be a very different type of kid to begin with) he really doesn't fit in socially with most high school kids. he might be lucky to find one or two that he does hit it off with, but there is no guarantee. (his idea of free time is to read Summa Theologica by Aquinas -- we are not catholic --and attend different religious services. He goes to about 4 a week, everything from buddhist to episcopal. favorite TV show -- religion and ethics newsweekly. very different kid). He does have several friends that he has met at Aikido, CAP, and community college and, although they are older, he does interact with them well. If he went the community college route, we might try to encourage some of these friendships if they looked like they would fit.</p>

<p>The interaction he is looking for is more on an intellectual basis. my concern is that he has this idea that in a really good high school program, the kids sit around discussing philosophy, current events as a reflection of the historic development of a country, etc. I think he has an unrealistic ideal.</p>

<p>He is well socialized, gets along well with others, participates in many groups and activities and is comfortable in almost all situations. </p>

<p>If we homeschool -- I grant the degree, and I won't make him take health, PE or civics -- so I don't have to worry about that. Kids in our area are allowed to partial enroll in the high school, so that would be an option. I was thinking this might be a good way to go. My only concern was how low the AP test scores were -- and whether that indicated that the class/teacher was really not all that great. No one in the past few years has recieved a 5 and only a few received a 4. they tell the kids that it looks good to take an AP class even if you don't pass the tests -- and that is not what I think. I would worry that he wouldn't do as well on the test as he could if he did a community college class and supplemented with some self-study.</p>

<p>thanks for all the ideas -- we are open to any suggestions!</p>

<p>stef</p>

9

<p>My sons took a combination route, which has already been suggested here by some. They were homeschooled through 8th grade, but took PE, art, music at the middle school. In high school, they chose to attend public school part-time (allowed in some states, not in others), taking courses of their choice at the high school (including some Honors and AP classes, computers, band, etc.) and doing others at home. As juniors and seniors, they added some community college courses. Surprisingly, they were quite well accepted by the other community college students. For example, when my 17 yr old took calculus at the cc, he got together with two other students to work on problems--a 20 yr old and a 30 yr old. My sons enjoyed the interaction with a variety of ages and experience levels. The colleges to which they applied had no problem with this combination approach. (I made diplomas for them and a transcript covering all their courses, but we also sent transcripts from the high school and college.)</p>

<p>On further advantage was that we were able to get the high school to pay for their cc classes, as long as they met certain criteria. </p>

<p>I can't say what is best for your son, but it sounds like he really enjoys cc classes. And he could still study things at home that he would prefer to do on his own, or that are not offered at the high school or cc.</p>

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<p>Some schools will accept a 4 and some will not even accept a 5. </p>

<p>If your S will be lucky enough and wants to go to college, being placed in level 100 will mean that he will get the A without trying, and thus able to take a more varied curricula. If he is able to attend a "most selective" school, his peer group will be extremely challenging, perhaps even too challenging unless he has the social skills.</p>

11

<p>istoomuch -- </p>

<p>I think that my son is more concerned about taking the AP tests to prove that he took the most rigorous courses available. We have talked and he is not really interested in transferring in a bunch of credits to get advanced standing. His plan is to attend a selective or very selective school and possibly use some of his community college/university/AP scores to place into a higher level in some areas (more philosophy and religion than anything else).</p>

<p>we have discussed this at length and he and I both want him to have the full 4 year, living on campus, participating in college activities, experience -- he is not interested in accelerating through. </p>

<p>I really have no concerns about him socially -- he sounds geeky and he is, but that is his personality and has nothing to do with social apptitude. My guess is, enrollment in a regular high school program would cause him to become withdrawn and isolated. both he and I recognize that online classes (which many homeschoolers take for high school) are not giving him the academic stimulation he is seeking -- he loves discussing ideas even more than reading about them -- and that doesn't really happen in an online environment.</p>

<p>I would like for him to be able to take maybe 12 hours or so his first year of college, so that he doesn't feel overwhelmed and is free to get involved in college activities.</p>

<p>One thing we discussed today was whether he could participate in the local high schools debate and forensics team -- I am thinking that would give him some fun, somewhat social interaction and I think he would really enjoy debate. we will be checking this out later this week.</p>

<p>stef</p>

12

<p>another thing about the AP scores -- it is not that I want to make sure he only gets 5's -- that is not it at all. I am sure he will not get all 5's -- that is pretty difficult. </p>

<p>my concern was that no one in the class got 5's (in any of the 11 subjects) -- that tells me that it is not taught well.</p>

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<p>Have you met with some teachers at the local school, to see them for yourself? </p>

<p>Low AP scores could be a reflection on the kids (and the support they receive from home) rather than on the teachers.</p>

14

<p>
[quote]
The interaction he is looking for is more on an intellectual basis. my concern is that he has this idea that in a really good high school program, the kids sit around discussing philosophy, current events as a reflection of the historic development of a country, etc. I think he has an unrealistic ideal.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Sometimes they do. And sometimes the kids think that these discussions are digressions from the curriculum that ought to prepare them for the AP and SAT tests. I agree, though, that debate, Mock Trial, forensic teams are great ways to engage in discussions and make friends as well. Would the high school allow him to join if he were not a member of the school?</p>

<p>One problem with college classes is that students do not hang around after class. Students get to know one another in other ways, through study groups, through dorms, through extra-curricular activities, frats/sororities, etc... You should consider the type of classes your son might take. Some may be lecture classes with little opportunities for discussion. </p>

<p>If it is intellectual stimulation he craves rather than social interaction with peers, he may be better off going the community college route. Make sure, however, that the college courses cover the same materials as the AP curriculum if you wish him to take AP tests.</p>

15

<p>
[quote]
One problem with college classes is that students do not hang around after class.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>This is highly variable and depends on the college.</p>

<p>At our local community college, there are a number of full-time day students who commute via public transportation. They are pretty much "stuck" on-campus between classes, and it's easy to find people with whom to interact in the cafeteria, student center, library, peer tutoring center, etc. Young students dual-enrolled during their high school years have taken leadership roles in clubs, musical performance groups, and plays.</p>

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<p>hsmomstef, I think you are right: it does not look as if the local high school could provide your son with the kind of classes he needs. And philosophy/religion is not really the kind of classes well-suited for online learning, so I understand your concerns completely. Because your district allowes the part-time schooling, you can choose the route described by Susantm: a couple of classes at school, some classes at college, and joining all the clubs that might interest him (both in school and in college: maybe, a philosophy club at college will provide him with the discussions he needs?) If you will print out the Acorn books for each AP subject, you will be able to make sure he covers all the topics even if they were not covered in the college classes. </p>

<p>I also think that you may want to move on to university (instead of CC) as soon as possible - the level of discussion in CC classes may be dismal... The half-time students (6 hours?) are eligible for finaid, so don't let the financial considerations stop you. Or he may ask the permission to audit a class or two unofficially...</p>

<p>It would be perfect if you could find a mentor for S in the Philosophy department. </p>

<p>Oh, one more thing: I believe some states have state-wide requirements for high school diploma eligibility; make sure you CAN issue him the diploma and transcript if he didn't take Civics.</p>

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<p>Hi, hsmomstef, I remember you from a discussion a few month’s back about your son’s interest in religion. It sounds like he’s been making headway.</p>

<p>The IB school’s “report card” isn’t all that bad. Even at the best schools, 6’s and 7’s are hard to come by and this school seems about middle road for the national average. </p>

<p>The HL English and History courses that are offered are IB bread and butter. HL English is a great course. At my son’s school they offered European History instead of American, but I would think that the discipline and teaching methods would be the same. Again, HL history is a very rigorous curriculum. That there are 15-16 kids who scored 6 or 7 in HL English and History indicates that there were some very intelligent and capable students in this program and, I suspect, a high level of intellectual discussion.</p>

<p>Math and science seem on the weak side, though. I’d try to find out why. Unless your son is interested in art as a third HL, he would have to go with Math or Biology and here the school tested at its lowest.</p>

<p>The IB has an ab initio language program that allows a student to take just two years of a new language. In that way, you son could most likely continue his Chinese independently. TOK is a terrific philosophy course which, I think, really sets the tone for the rest of the IB program. I don’t think religion is regularly taught in most high schools. It was at my son’s, but not as part of the IB program. Your son could continue his independent study in comparative religion on his extended essay.</p>

<p>I’d suggest that you meet with the IB administrator and see if you like their teaching philosophy. Find out what other non-IB electives are offered and if they plan to expand their IB course offering. The IB diploma program doesn’t start until 11th grade. I’m not that familiar with the 9/10 grade curriculum as my son’s school only offered the diploma.</p>

<p>As you can probably discern, I’m a fan of the IB program. It’s not perfect and success depends a lot on the caliber of the teacher, but especially for a humanities driven kid, it offers a wonderful combination of structure and challenge.</p>

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<p>What kind of homeschooling community is there where you live? Where I live we have two very active homeschool support groups, one for Christian homeschoolers and a separate secular one open to anyone. Together they serve families with about 3000 homeschooled kids. That's skewed towards younger kids, but there are certainly enough teens to provide a critical mass for social activities. My family has been very active in the secular group. There are many well-established activities (chess team, math team, science bowl, soccer, drama club). There are also more specific things that come and go, including some book discussion groups, swing dancing classes, a debate group. One of the moms is a research chemist and taught a homeschooler chem lab when her child was the right age to take it. Another mom taught a couple of AP courses for a small group of kids when her child wanted to take the exams. My own child self-studied for AP exams. He took 10 of them, with much better results than your local school. It is not that hard to self-study for them. Many of the local homeschool teens take a few core courses at the CC and/or audit (they aren't allowed to enroll) at the local university. We have a graduation ceremony every year for our "grads". Some of them have gone to pretty elite colleges (2 currently at MIT and 1 currently at Stanford. Two of those kids turned down Harvard. There is one at Pomona, one at Reed. Many have gone to our state flagship). If you have an active homeschooling community near you, you might be able to organize a great books discussion group or something else your son would enjoy, while having him complete his core coursework thru some mix-and-match combination of CC, distance learning, and self-studying for AP or SAT II tests.</p>

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<p>Hsmomstef, I think he has several options, and you know him better, and he knows himself better than we do.</p>

<p>I guess my biggest concern as a parent would be that he has a romanticized view of "corporate education". Yes, there can be some good intellectual discussions, and yes, at a selective school the population will be enriched with many students looking for those intellectual discussions, but not everybody.
I would have a long discussion with him about hurrying, developing his mind and his "social self" and how that relates to his options. That selective college will have a higher concentration of people interested in philosophy and religion, but they will also be interested in drinking, girls and an I-banker job - in other words if he is looking for continuous intellectual atmosphere, he may even be disappointed at Yale. He may be severely disappointed, with the biggest problem being once he is at Yale - he is at Yale, no "do overs"
My thinking is that he can follow his intellectual pursuits "to the side" as it were, while he matures and develops his interests, and more of his peers catch up to him - HE doesn't have to be in a hurry.He has an option to "try out" high school, particularly if he can take a combination of high school and community college classes. I would keep an eye on what requirements he needs to fulfill to be able to graduate after junior year and go on to that residential college - not that route is what I think he should do, more keep the option open.</p>

<p>I don't know much about IB, but I don't think I would give too much weight to the score history, certainly not without meeting the teachers. IB might be an excellent compromise for him, again he can work world religions in if he wants to badly enough. The only downside I can see to IB is that I, perhaps wrongly, think of it as more of a multi-year commitment, if high school just did not work out, it might be harder to leave IB early and go on to college.</p>

<p>He sounds like a bright, introspective, thoughtful young man, I think you and he can make a good decision, about his future, particularly after he has some concrete experience about high school.</p>