What To Do When You've Got No Money

[songman]

<p>Tomdadon said: I just find this whole college process to be so unjust and corrupt.</p>

<p>If you are as intelligent as you claim and have the insight to see the injustice here…then read on…Many CC Posters will discount what I am saying below or label me. But so be it. My advice will be different than anything you probably ever heard from your teachers or society.</p>

<p>I learned a long time ago that you will get no sympathy on CC highlighting the enormous inequities to the entire college process. College is a liberal’s dream…the great equalizer…as long as their kids get all the opportunities and breaks they always feel it is fair and needs no fixing. The reality is that you bought into a system that the do gooders created only to then slap the heck out of you later when it comes to the college admission process. They will deny that college is the great distributor of or transferor of net worth. Notice I did not say transferor of wealth. As wealth is not something the middle class possesses. The middle class possesses income ,cash flow and net worth… Not wealth! Yet many in Congress and in liberal society confuse the two different concepts.</p>

<p>I can only comment on school systems in MA and regarding the fairness of it all ,it stated back in elementary school as far as I see it.</p>

<p>For example throughout our elementary and middle schools in MA they teach that " you can do and accomplish anything you put your mind to" sounds great right? Yet it held back the kids that were highly skilled and academically inclined. My neighbor’s kid was tremendously skilled in the arts, whether singing, dancing, or voice she excelled yet was literally told that she should not audition for leading roles cause other kids need a turn. "We should be fair to all " the school admin said. Kids that were better off playing soccer were allowed to perform when clearly they had no skill to do so. These kids went onto high school but were disillusioned when all of a sudden the same school system that embraced them actually delivered their first slap. All of a sudden one had to know how to play soccer and play it well. The same went for the arts and academics. I have seen kids take up spots on soccer teams that had no business being there yet the parents used their PC pass afforded them by the “do anything” culture to force their kid to play while skilled kids rode the bench cause “every kid has to play”</p>

<p>I could go on, but right now many of the above CC posters have labeled me something akin to Rush Limbaugh. The others have provided advice so I will chime in with some.</p>

<p>What makes you think that after you graduate from your top choice school that the same injustice you see,(and it is real IMHO) that others do not , will go away? Corporations pick up where college has left off. Our firm is required to hire people based on the same system that colleges employ. Equal opportunity and all that goes with it good and bad are apparent to the ones that believe in meritocracy. You will face the same redistribution of net worth. This started back in the 1960’s and has been gaining speed ever since. Others say it is just payback time for all the injustices minorities suffered at the hands of whites. Hmmm tell that to the immigrant whites that worked their way up from the same poverty and discrimination that others faced. You will be upset when you discover that your degree from your “dream” college is turned down because some other candidate was hired from a less academically challenging college that filled the company’s quota system. You will see that truly only the poor or dysfunctional and the extreme wealthy are immune from this system somewhat not toally immune but at least they have a ticket to play in the game. The rest of us are economically enslaved by it. </p>

<p>My advice: Attend the state’s flagship university. Blow them away academically and be tops in the class. Borrow $$ if you have to…then after graduation or better yet while in school create your own business. Then after graduation go into your business and you will hit the ground running. While you will be subjected to many of the do gooders laws, your income will grow exponentially ultimately placing you way beyond the reach of their silly laws. Take the business public by selling stock or sell it outright and retire at 40. If this idea doesn’t thrill you. Then apply in your senior year to your dream Grad school. At this point you will be extremely desirable and the handouts that you pointed out in your post will be available to you. You will have wealth not just income and cash flow. You will rise above the middle class. </p>

<p>Someone once said “the rich get rich, the poor get cash, and the middle class pays the bill”. To me ,not much has changed except congress and others not only took cash flow from the middle class they also reduced their opportunities to advance. </p>

<p>I hope this helps and if for nothing else it is a different point of view then you might see on the CC boards. Good Luck! And the rest of the CC posters have fun flaming this post!</p>

[tomdadon]

<p>"Wow. Just curious, what makes you think you are “true minority” besides new language (a few years ago, I guess)?</p>

<p>As for what to do… Set next goal and keep going. It’s up to you if an admission committee decision will turn your life downhill or not."</p>

<p>I did not call myself a true minority. I said I faced the same problems as some of them. Language barrier? Starting life in America with relatively meager financial resources? Cultural assimilation? </p>

<p>And although I know that many deserving minorities DO benefit from Affirmative Action, my brief experience with it has been that it is the middle-class, well-off minorities who gain the most from it. Many times, they’re kids who were born in America to well-off parents, experiencing few if any disadvantages of an already much more progressive and accepting society than that which instituted Affirmative Action in the first place.</p>

<p>No decision committee turned my life downhill. If anything, they were ready for me to come to their school.</p>

<p>I did all my homework and then some. And I’m not set on one school. I’d be happy to go to three or four of the schools to which I got accepted.</p>

<p>Finally: if there is one fault that I had, it was indeed unrealistic expectations. Unfortunately, most 16-17 year olds aren’t thinking about financial resources as much as they are about excelling and doing their best. I thought that was the point here in these United States for which I’m supposed to be so grateful, anyway.</p>

<p>And, happymomof1, no one told me life is fair. I’m not even demanding it to be fair. I’m asking why the college acceptance system is unfair. It’s supposed to be a meritocracy. If everytime we met injustice we simply settled on the old “life is unfair cliche…” Well, you’re the elder, here. You let me know what would happen.</p>

[Northstarmom]

<p>“Thanks for the cynical, tailor-made reply “mom.” First, your definition of a top college is likely not quite the same as mine. It is true: Harvard, Yale, and Princeton only expect 10% of the typical income. But since when did UPenn, Duke, UChicago, etc. stop being recognized as top schools? I assure you that they do not expect only 10% of a typical income. Furthermore, “mom,” I did apply for many merit-aid schools, INCLUDING the ones I listed. Unfortunately, getting merit-aid is always difficult (ESPECIALLY AT SUCH SCHOOLS), and it is more so in a year that will go down as the most competitive in history.”</p>

<p>Hmm. I know an incoming student, a current student, and a recent alum at Chicago, and all got the need-based aid they needed since it apparently guarantees to meet 100% of demonstrated financial need. The students include two white males and one son of Asian immigrants. Their families are doing the usual middle class stretching to send kids to a private school.</p>

<p>Your sense of entitlement, slamming of people like minorities, and your lack of gratitude to a country that your family emigrated to is repulsive. Working academically hard and getting wonderful stats doesn’t guarantee that anyone will get to go to one of the top colleges in the country even if they are admitted to one.</p>

<p>“Second, “need-based” is very much at the discretion of the school in question. Based on my family’s income, we do not qualify. But my parents do not have the logical means with which to pay for UVa’s undergraduate education. And, as much as I’d be happy to go there, UVa’s not even my top choice.”</p>

<p>Given that U Va. guarantees to meet 100% of demonstrated need, it sounds like your parents aren’t willing to make the sacrifices that many do to send their kids to that school. If you want to be angry, be angry at your parents.</p>

<p>Even better: Be angry at yourself that despite your apparent intelligence, you didn’t do the necessary research to build your college application list from the bottom up including applying to a financial safety that you would have been happy attending. </p>

<p>“But it’s hard for me to justify another four years of focused discipline (in preparation for some mystical goal) when my last four years came up short of a very similar goal.”</p>

<p>Then don’t work that hard. Your loss or perhaps your gain if before you were working hard, doing ECs, etc. just to please colleges instead of pursuing the things that interested you.</p>

[AnnaSmith]

<p>I feel your pain. I don’t understand why other posters are being somewhat harsh. Can’t you see the OP is just frustrated and it takes TIME to move on? Cut him some slack. Yeah, you can think that you are more fortunate than all those who are poor and can’t go to college, but frustration is relative. He has accomplished a lot in high school, and deserves to take it to a higher level? And, going to a state school vs. an elite private like duke, does make a difference with your goals later in life. If you have the intelligence and work ethic, you can definitely make it where you want to be, i know, but you’d have to work many times harder to achieve that coming from a state school than an elite private. It is doable though, and the OP will realize this.</p>

<p>@OP: I’m in a similar position as you actually, about getting into a great school but most probably can’t pay for it. Actually, I got wait listed at one school, good school, I thought was a match, while someone of lesser caliber got in. It wasn’t ECs either because, like you, I have made differences. Maybe it was the essay. That seems really dumb too, the fact that you could have done above average in school and just write a stellar essay to get into a good school. It really is the ORMs, the asian math geek with an overload of APs, or white, or jew, that don’t get in (I noticed the asian part on the jhu thread of waitlisted/rejected actually). It is unfair. Although, lol, you DID get in. I suppose it </p>

<p>Everyone knows life is unfair. If something happened to you guys that was unfair, you’d vent. I doubt you wouldn’t even feel bad for at least a second. You actually DID get into your school, and something is standing in your way. Maybe you could ask for more money, get a job besides a work study out of campus? Don’t stop trying just yet. But if you really can’t go, you’ll shine wherever you go since you already have the smarts.</p>

[3togo]

<p>^ I’m not sure I understand your point at all in relation to the OP. If you believe the best and brightest should get the best opportunitities (and you need money) then target schools that provide merit aid. For a top student there A LOT of terrific merit aid possibilitles. Is this all the schools in the US? … absolutley not but plenty of them including many of the top schools. There are ways to get there from here.</p>

[tomdadon]

<p>songman, I thank you for your insightful, unassuming opinion.</p>

<p>I’ve known this to be true: many of the parents here are just as blind as their college-bound children. Or not necessarily blind, but rather comfortably numb. If Daughter One got into Princeton and Daughter Two is enjoying a full ride from Yale, what is there to complain about?</p>

<p>I probably will end up doing what you said. I mean, what choice do I have? I’m not the kind of person that keels over and dies. I couldn’t even if I wanted to, because I’d get bored and annoyed with life if I stopped working. So for all the keen mothers who think that their experience with this college system is even close to substantial (either because their kids went through it or because they themselves fool themselves into believing that college has not changed in the past 30 or so years): I’m not taking a knee and giving up. I’m just complaining and *****ing. If that bothers you, then don’t respond. But I think, since I’ve already committed myself to moving past this, I am allowed to express my discontent to other people here. Maybe someone will catch the hint; maybe someone will understand. Or maybe current juniors will look at this and laugh, thinking it can’t happen to them. Or maybe nothing will happen and this thread will go into the abyss of all unread threads.</p>

<p>But I don’t care. Posting this harms no one.</p>

[tomdadon]

<p>First, Northstarmom: You MUST be blind. I’VE ALREADY EXPLAINED THAT I AM GRATEFUL FOR BEING HERE. You have labeled me as ungrateful and decided that this ungratefulness is repulsive. The only repulsive thing here is your inability to detach yourself from a label that YOU just placed on me. Next, “need-based” aid is calculated by a FORMULA. Not a human mind, but rather a formula that takes income into question and little else. Sadly, we do not live in a textbook world. There are other factors to consider. My parents CANNOT pay the college tuition; stop deciding for them or for me that they can based off an internet forum post. And finally, I do not slam minorities. I am not racist or sexist. I do not judge people by color, ethnicity, race, or sex. I judge a system that gives advantages to people based on those categorizations. </p>

<p>So, in short: stop painting me as something completely different than what I am.</p>

<p>AnnaSmith: thank you for your condolences.</p>

<p>To the rest: you must not realize just how impossible it was to get merit aid this year. My school provided me statistics and expectations to where my friends and I would get in based on past years and they were ALL way over-inflated. If we’re resorting to anecdotal evidence: the most able, smartest kid in my class got in nowhere but UF, and I assure you that he had the credentials for HYPS. Furthermore, my friend’s brother, who had credentials very similar to my own, received the Robertson Scholarship from Duke several years ago. I applied this year and didn’t even make it past the first round.</p>

<p>I was good enough to get into the schools I wanted to get into. But being SO FAR AND ABOVE THE REST so as to not only get into these schools, but also get their merit aid is a pipe dream, at least for this year. I could have settled on a lesser school, but by then we’re not talking about the elite level that I wanted in the first place anymore, in which case UF would do just fine anyway.</p>

[Youdon_tsay]

<p>OK, vent away. I understand frustration. But don’t be rude to the parents (and college students) who are trying to help you. And they ARE trying to help you. The sooner you take ownership of your situation (and role in it) rather than blaming others – poor people, minorities, the system, the man – the sooner you’ll get back on the path to a successful life and career.</p>

<p>I am surprised by the number of cc posters who really seem to think you can only be successful or somehow get to the front of the line by going to only a very few preordained schools. Really??? My BIL is mega-successful, and he attended a fourth-tier state school that people would (and do) scoff at.</p>

<p>I looked at a previous post and see you want to go to law school. So kick ass at the state school, get great grades and go to the name-brand school for the law degree. Just don’t wallow in the self-pity for too long. Good luck!</p>

[tomdadon]

<p>And, to stray a bit off -topic: I don’t get why supporters of the current system always stretch an argument against Affirmative Action and make it into a seemingly racial attack.</p>

<p>My school traditionally lands around eight into the Ivies. This year four got in, and three of them were minorities. I’ll even say that I think two of them were VERY deserving. But not necessarily more deserving than some of the other students who got rejected/waitlisted. And one was definitely not deserving; she wasn’t even in the top 10% of a class of over 700 students.</p>

<p>Another “minority” student (actually born in America to American parents, one of whom is Spanish, which would qualify him as White and not Hispanic) got into MIT with scores that wouldn’t even qualify him for UF Honors. But he put Hispanic on his application and went to an MIT Minority Summer program over the summer.</p>

<p>I would never discount a human being based on anything other than themselves. But I see nothing morally bankrupt with discounting a system that advances certain people over other based on their birthrights rather than conscientious work and success.</p>

[blu_g8orade]

<p>^and what do those students have to do with your situation? they “took your spot”, right? </p>

<p>focus on your own life instead of blaming others.</p>

<p>this thread is about to turn into something else…</p>

[tomdadon]

<p>"OK, vent away. I understand frustration. But don’t be rude to the parents (and college students) who are trying to help you. And they ARE trying to help you. The sooner you take ownership of your situation (and role in it) rather than blaming others – poor people, minorities, the system, the man – the sooner you’ll get back on the path to a successful life and career.</p>

<p>I am surprised by the number of cc posters who really seem to think you can only be successful or somehow get to the front of the line by going to only a very few preordained schools. Really??? My BIL is mega-successful, and he attended a fourth tier state school that people would (and do) scoff at.</p>

<p>I looked at a previous post and see you want to go to law school. So kick ass at the state school, get great grades and go to the name-brand school for the law degree. Just don’t wallow in the self-pity for too long. Good luck!"</p>

<p>Thank you. I’m not attacking anyone. I’m defending myself from sarcastic/bitter/harsh criticisms that find their reasoning based in la-la land. </p>

<p>I’m fine with the schools from which I got waitlisted/rejected. You can’t win them all, and while I do attribute certain shortcomings to myself (as I am a human being), I cannot help but cast a suspicious eye towards a skewed system. </p>

<p>I will not wallow in self-pity for too long. I will get mad, vent, make my points, and move on. But I find it hard to accept responsibility for this “failure,” “shortcoming,” or “misstep.” I simply do not see what I did wrong. I do see how I can overcome this situation, and I am self-assured that I will. Success is thankfully not defined by the name of a college. Still, this all leaves a bitter taste on my tongue.</p>

[tomdadon]

<p>I’m not blaming those students. Do you see what I mean? Stretching my argument against a system into an argument against individuals.</p>

[Youdon_tsay]

<p>I’m glad you know success is not defined by the name of a college. This whole process is difficult on young people. I have a ds who is a junior, so we’re about to go through all this ourselves. We’ll see how rational I am this time next year. ;)</p>

<p>I would like to add – and this is for other posters; I’m not piling on OP – that getting into the selective school is only half the battle. Paying for it is a whole other story. I encourage every kid reading this thread to sit down TODAY and talk to their parents about the realities of financing a college education, especially with the huge downturn in the stock market. It’s changed what parents can afford, how many scholarships a school can offer, schools becoming less need-blind.</p>

<p>My ds has his eye on some private schools. He knows – or at least has been TOLD; who knows whether he was listening – that the only way he’ll get there is with mega-scholarships. Otherwise, it’s a state school for him. Now, he’s got a lot going for him, but who knows whether it’ll be enough to get terrific merit aid. We’ve also told him we won’t co-sign on mega loans. Knowing all this do I cringe when he plays Civilization instead of study for his AP exams? Yep. But he has been told the score, and the choice is up to him.</p>

[tomdadon]

<p>The thing is, though, studying for AP exams, as noble as it may seem, probably won’t be too helpful. I’ve taken 8 AP exams so far (going to take 6 more at the end of this year) and received a 5 on all of them but one (Spanish Language), on which I got a 4. I’m not Spanish.</p>

<p>And they weren’t chump APs either. They were Calculus AB, Physics B, English Language, Statistics, European History, American History, and World History.</p>

<p>But colleges don’t look at AP scores for admissions. Indeed, your kid would be much better off preparing for the SATs one more time, curing cancer, or better yet, acquiring a Hispanic surname. The ironic thing is that Civilization will probably do as much as an AP score in terms of college admissions.</p>

<p>Still, it’s nice to see that academic ambition is encouraged, even if not rewarded.</p>

[Youdon_tsay]

<p>AP exams won’t get him into schools, but it replaces the cost of tuition if he can get credit for classes, and that makes his dream of a private school closer to his reach. But I know he’s 16 and isn’t really thinking like that. Maybe I’ll remind him. :)</p>

[hmom5]

<p>Northstarmom hit the nail on the head, your beef isn’t with the college system or the US, it’s very simply with your parent’s. All of these generous schools deemed you need no aid? This tells us your parent’s are choosing to spend their resources on something else.</p>

<p>Read all the posts here from parent’s eating Raman noodles and driving 20 year old cars to send their kids to college. Do you think it’s easy or comfortable for most to pay? You refer to parent’s happy for their kids’ free rides. At most of the schools you mention the majority of students are full pay.</p>

<p>In my case I pay three full tuitions, otherwise right now I’d be in Hawaii sipping a cold drink after my massage. So as Northstar said, you can be angry but you’re choosing the wrong parties for your anger.</p>

<p>Most kids don’t think of finances? id you buy any college books? All that I know of implore you to consider finances. Every college web site has a financial aid calculator. You’ve been on CC for months. How could you not have understood paying for college is a problem and painful for all but the top .5 percent?</p>

[tomdadon]

<p>It is remarkable how you choose to analyze something COMPLETELY out of your scope of knowledge - my parent’s finances, habits, and lifestyle - instead of something very public that affects many people (the school system).</p>

<p>You have to remember that unlike many parents here, mine do not have a long history in America. They did not have time to build up large financial reserves that I could draw from when it came time for college. They are only truly beginning to do that now.</p>

<p>But financial aid is not determined by your available financial reserves; rather, it is determined by your income. My parents’ income is very much middle class, and had we lived here all our lives, perhaps they’d be able to struggle through this. But right now it’s just not possible.</p>

<p>So stop assuming an air of superiority and self-righteousness. My parents have done all they could and continue to do all they can.</p>

[hmom5]

<p>I’m not blaming your parent’s for not being able to pay for the college of your dreams. Most can’t. I’m simply pointing out that they clearly make more money than the vast majority of people in this Country which surely gives you privileges most don’t have. Yet you think the money should come from somewhere to help you pay for a $200K luxury product. Think about it. The US has also done all it could welcoming your family and giving your parent’s the opportunity to make a great living. Now you get a good state subsidized college education but you feel entitled to more somehow.</p>

[twomules]

<p>Your parents can afford Univ of Florida? Then do a happy dance. There are lots of kids for whom that is out of reach.</p>

<p>Perhaps not you but on other threads there is a lack of understanding that private schools can admit whomever they want and do not need to justify it to anyone. They can also choose how much money to offer. No one can count on getting in or being able to afford it. I can’t believe how many kids are mad when they are not accepted for admission or can’t afford to go. Most people cannot afford the private colleges. The public colleges try to fill the availability gap at a reasonable cost.</p>

[Talya]

<p>tomdadon, there is no reason to think that you or your family have absolutely unique circumstances. Really. I do not see anything that separate you from other kids who went to state universities because of financial issue.</p>

<p>The comment about lack of large financial resources just made me laugh. And I find your comment about other people (including parents on this forum) rude and insulting, which does not make me feel more sympathetic. Especially because “you choose to analyze something COMPLETELY out of your scope of knowledge”, maybe that is what you mean by lack of cultural assimilation, I do not know.</p>