<p>I have an old grad school friend teaching at St Olaf, and one of my friend’s child graduated from the college, so I know it is an excellent school. Still, both for what she intends to study and for the opportunities that Brown offers AND the chance to spread out her wings, Brown is the better choice.
Of course, the family has to decide whether all these are worth the difference in cost.
But consider: St Olaf is excellent in math, but Brown is on a par with HYPSMC in that field. My S in fact would have attended Brown (“the students seem so happy there”) if the math department’s strength had been more in pure rather than applied math. He had a wonderful meeting with an award-winning prof there. With regard to IR, being on one of the coasts is a tremendous asset in terms of getting guest speakers (proximity to Logan airport is one reason why Harvard, on any given day, is awash with well-known figures).
The larger size of Brown compared to St Olaf and of Providence compared to Northfield, would also be more appealing to a student eager to spread her wings.</p>
<p>Volvo vs. Honda understates the difference considerably. Kids I know at Brown turned down HYPS (well, not all of them) to go there. St. Olaf is a wonderful college, but not necessarily for a student who is ready for Brown.</p>
<p>mom58…i think i recall reading that a high percentage of st. olaf students study abroad…and …that is really something to consider…she may have more funds available for study abroad at st. olaf than at brown…would that be the case? can she study abroad while at brown or is that only an option for her at st. olaf?</p>
<p>in my mind…st. olaf is known for their high caliber music offerings…brown for their open curriculum…where are these 2 ranked on her list of pro’s?</p>
<p>I agree with letting her look at the loan calculator that someone mentioned earlier. If I were in her place, though (having seen how various people I know live with various amounts of debt), I would go to Brown.</p>
<p>I would also look into applying for some external scholarships for future years.</p>
<p>A much higher percentage of St. Olaf students go on for math Ph.Ds as well. (Some of them may even end up teaching at Brown.)</p>
<p>I’ll bet you lunch that the number of kids who enter college thinking they’re getting a PhD in math who actually end up getting a PhD in math… is a REALLY small percentage. Really really small. Even the top math students in the country don’t have a clue what is involved in being a math major at a top math department, let alone doing a PhD. Hint- being good at math doesn’t get you very far at the graduate level. Just ask former Putnam prize winners what the weed -out and opt out processes looked like in their departments.</p>
<p>And this from the mother of a kid who started at MIT convinced he was getting a PhD in physics. Just like his entire Freshman Hall (PhD’s in math, physics or engineering. All of them.) Yup.</p>
<p>I would not pick an undergrad school with any agenda past the next four years, other than to avoid schools which would clearly knock out future possibilities.</p>
<p>I think St Olaf’s is a great institution. I am a Brown grad so am somewhat biased, but it is also a great institution. It is not worth bankrupting two generations of a family to attend-- but it is a wonderful and nurturing and challenging and stimulating place.</p>
<p>I can’t tell you how to spend your money but I wish you all the best of luck making this tough decision.</p>
<p><a href=“Some%20of%20them%20may%20even%20end%20up%20teaching%20at%20Brown.”>quote</a>
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<p>The right kind of online research should turn up exactly where most (or all) Brown professors of mathematics received their undergraduate degrees, if that is an issue of interest.</p>
<p>I would not pick an undergrad school with any agenda past the next four years, other than to avoid schools which would clearly knock out future possibilities.</p>
<p>^^^ This.</p>
<p>I missed the financial piece- I agree that money is important- while St Olafs does have merit aid ( some), Brown meets need and I bet that there are dedicated outside merit scholarships for students, there are at many other " need only" schools.</p>
<p>[undergrad origins of Ph.d.s](<a href=“Doctoral Degree Productivity - Institutional Research - Reed College”>http://www.reed.edu/ir/phd.html</a>)</p>
<p>Are there any other choices? To me, the disparity between these schools is just too great to pass up Brown, unless the financial end is just not doable.</p>
<p>I think the biggest point to make here is that Brown is what the daughter wants and she doesn’t sound like a flighty kid who doesn’t get the money issue. It’s clear that her parent’s have been over it with her for months. The OP has posted that they have a clear deal with DD, they pay an amount and the daughter pays half of anything above that amount. They let her look at and apply to schools with that deal on the table.</p>
<p>There is a big difference between these schools. There is a big difference between studying at a good college and a great one. There is much to be said for relishing finding your tribe. </p>
<p>Brown is a Lexus college and between working summers and part-time during the school year if DD can keep the loans under $40K I think she should be allowed to pursue this dream.</p>
<p>$35,000-$75,000? I’m with you, mother. No way is Brown or any school worth that kind of debt. She would get an excellent, personal education at St. Olafs. With the savings, she can spread her wings after college–instead of living in her childhood bedroom for the next 10 years, while she tries to pay down her debt!</p>
<p>The OP mentioned orchestra, as well as math, and it should be noted that St. Olaf has one of the best music programs in the country. Its choirs are well-known, as is the St. Olaf Christmas festival. Its orchestra tours in the United States annually, and has recently toured in Spain (2008) and Norway (2005).</p>
<p>[St</a>. Olaf College | Northfield, Minnesota, USA](<a href=“http://www.stolaf.edu/music/stolaf_orch/about.html]St”>http://www.stolaf.edu/music/stolaf_orch/about.html)</p>
<p>the undergrad cost is nothing compared to grad debt. Then again, going to St. Olaf (a school few people have heard of unless they’re researching LACs, knows someone that went there, or are on CC) you may not be able to get into as many “name brand” grad schools</p>
<p>Unlikely.</p>
<p>My d. is a graduate student at Princeton, in a top-5 nationally ranked program. For the past three years (including the incoming class), there hasn’t been a single student from any of the Ivies (including Princeton), nor Williams, Amherst, Swarthmore, or Pomona. Among the 14 faculty, there is only one with an Ivy undergraduate degree (Harvard). There have been students from UMissouri-Kansas City, Beloit, McGill, City University of New York, UC-Irvine, etc.</p>
<p>Mini, I’m thinking if it was the type of program that attracted ivy grads, there would be some. Let’s face it, the ivies have all become very pre professional, their numbers are generally low in PhD programs because of lack of interest. The ivies, for better or worse, have become the go to schools for those seeking high future incomes.</p>
<p>They had dozens of applications from Ivies and Williams, Amherst, Swarthmore, Pomona, etc. </p>
<p>But your point is generally well-taken, which is another argument in this case for St. Olaf.</p>
<p>Hey, if the money situation was okay, I’d choose Brown. But St. Olaf, especially in at least some of the areas in which the OP is interested, is Brown’s equal, and in one area certainly much better. It would not be a terrible tragedy if she ended up there.</p>
<p>When your second D goes off to college, your efc will be cut in half. Call Brown finaid and ask how much your D would’ve received today is her sister was also in college. Then you will be able to estimate the four-year cost of Brown.</p>
<p>It’s great you guys can see into the future to help this kid figure out her grad school plans. hello? she needs an undergrad decision in a couple of days. And the undergrad PhD statistics are helpful to her why exactly? Given the number of times the typical Freshman changes majors (a couple) and given the likelihood that this kid will end up doing exactly what she thinks she’ll do at the age of 18 (small) and given how many other variables end up impacting grad school decisions which cannot be predicted (location of a significant other, amount of funding, parental illness requiring a shift in geography or career plans put on hold, etc.) why exactly would Mini’s D’s grad school colleagues be a relevant datapoint for this kid?</p>
<p>Go the school where you and your D think she’ll have the best chance of maximizing her own personal and intellectual growth without bankrupting you or putting her future on the line. And then don’t look back.</p>
<p>For the record, I thought I’d get a PhD in archaeology. But I ended up with an MBA and an interesting and gratifying corporate career. Most of my siblings and cousins now have PhD’s (so I’m not unfamiliar with the drill) and only one (the famous physicist) is in the discipline he started out in. So to pick St. Olaf’s for the eventual PhD seems very short sighted to to me. Or to pick Brown for the prestige seems short sighted to me. Lots of good reasons to go to either- but neither of these would be very compelling if this were my child.</p>
<p>I think you’re missing the point. The argument is about the difference in educational quality to be experienced NOW, not at the Ph.D. level. And the differences in at least some areas are just not that great (and in at least one clearly is in favor of St. Olaf.) </p>
<p>But assuming (as I do) that Brown simply offers more and perhaps a better overall experience, can the family afford, and, if they can, is it worth what they will have to do to make that possible? I don’t know the answer to that. I do know that St. Olaf would not be a terrible fate.</p>
<p>"They drink better wine than others do. They marry more attractive spouses, raise slightly more beautiful children … "</p>
<p>I just love this forum. Where else could a statement like this go unchallenged? Where else could it be just accepted as conventional wisdom? </p>
<p>And now, let us pause a moment to consider the plight of those poor, dear non-Ivy Leaguers.</p>