<p>Controlling the drinking policy (making the frat scene less inclusive), massive budget cuts (resulting in detrimental effects for the students, such as increased class size), etc.... Is Dartmouth losing its touch? Or are other schools facing the same problems?</p>
<p>Many other schools are undergoing huge budget cuts at a similar proportion to Dartmouth. There have been “riots” lately at harvard due to students protesting budget cuts, etc. The economy went way down and this had big endowment effects on almost every school. And I’d hardly call the results from the budget cuts “detrimental for students.” An increased class size of 50 really won’t effect the college at all. In fact, I believe it is our current class of '11 that is about 50 students over the normal size, and they have reported no ill effects. As for what exactly is being cut, it is still to be determined, but as far as I can see there will be nothing cut that is going to have a huge negative impact on my Dartmouth experience.</p>
<p>As for the recent drinking policy issue, that is not a college change. The Hanover police department (completely separate from the college) recently announced changes to their approach on underage drinking. I personally feel as if the college will combat this through the proper channels, and that this whole issue will blow over as hype soon enough.</p>
<p>The drinking policy I don’t know about. All I know is that social life at Dartmouth revolves around alcohol a lot more than it should. But as for the budget cuts, Dartmouth certainly faces some tough challenges, but don’t imagine for even a moment that it is much better at any of its peer schools:
[Economic</a> Crisis Hits MIT, Necessitates Budget Cuts Throughout the Institute - The Tech](<a href=“http://tech.mit.edu/V129/N64/budgetcuts.html]Economic”>http://tech.mit.edu/V129/N64/budgetcuts.html)
[Harvard</a> Arts and Sciences faculty pares deficit | Harvard Magazine](<a href=“http://harvardmagazine.com/breaking-news/fas-pares-deficit]Harvard”>http://harvardmagazine.com/breaking-news/fas-pares-deficit)
[Princeton</a> Alumni Weekly: After the crash](<a href=“Issues | Princeton Alumni Weekly”>After the crash | Princeton Alumni Weekly)
[Top</a> Yale Salaries Frozen | New Haven Independent](<a href=“http://newhavenindependent.org/index.php/archives/entry/top_yale_salaries_frozen/id_22272]Top”>http://newhavenindependent.org/index.php/archives/entry/top_yale_salaries_frozen/id_22272)
[Ivy</a> League Endowment Meltdown - Forbes.com](<a href=“Ivy League Endowment Meltdown”>Ivy League Endowment Meltdown)
[Stanford</a> assets, endowments fall in dire economy](<a href=“http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2010/01/06/BAHM1BE3JU.DTL]Stanford”>http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2010/01/06/BAHM1BE3JU.DTL)
[Closed</a> dorms for season signals hard decisions for Rice | Houston & Texas News | Chron.com - Houston Chronicle](<a href=“http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/metropolitan/6779879.html]Closed”>http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/metropolitan/6779879.html)</p>
<p>The increase in class sizes actually isn’t to focused on the effect of adding 50 more kids to the incoming class (which is within normal range) but adding 50 students to each class. (So a total of 200 kids)</p>
<p>The budget crisis will have other components but we certainly aren’t the only school in a rough spot. </p>
<p>The effect of Hanover PD’s new alcohol enforcement strategy has yet to be felt… I wouldn’t get too worried as of yet but I think this is more of an issue of an aggressive police chief and DA then of police really wanting to spend the time conducting “sting operations” to catch underage drinking. There will definitely be push back from students and the college as a whole.</p>
<p>So the '14 class would be the first class to increase class size by 50 and they would just increase class size until the '18 class?</p>
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<p>What sort of push back? I had heard that underage drinking was against the law. Are students going to argue to the police that they should be allowed to commit crimes?</p>
<p>Coureur: No, they aren’t. But the college, and if they so choose to utilize it, the student body, has tremendous influence and voting power in the town of Hanover. There can simply be a lot of pressure applied to keep the new police policies from going into place. Since students can register as residents of Hanover, they could, if organized, easily make up the largest voting pool for the counsel of selectmen etc…</p>
<p>Right. And from there, it’s just a little way to changing the federal highway funding rules which are why all the states have drinking ages of 21. Huh?</p>
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<p>So they are going vote to prevent the police from enforcing the law? The way I understand this sting the cops are going to bust frats that commit crimes by serving alcohol to people below the legal drinking age.</p>
<p>If the people of New Hampshire don’t like this law they should vote to change it, not vote to punish the police for enforcing it.</p>
<p>Before leaping to conclusions, it’s worth realising that such a punitive policy will:</p>
<ol>
<li>Destroy Dartmouth’s unique Greek culture;</li>
<li>Probably cause physical harm, if not death.</li>
</ol>
<p>[The</a> GLC campus email summarises the second argument well enough](<a href=“http://www.ivygateblog.com/2010/02/dartmouth-greek-czars-fire-back-at-hanover-police-in-campus-wide-email-but-will-require-ids-at-all-future-parties/]The”>http://www.ivygateblog.com/2010/02/dartmouth-greek-czars-fire-back-at-hanover-police-in-campus-wide-email-but-will-require-ids-at-all-future-parties/), but the first probably needs some elaboration.</p>
<p>Dartmouth is unique in that our Greek houses throw a lot of open parties; most houses are open almost every night during the term for anyone to walk in, and every weekend, there will be a house throwing a huge party open to basically anyone (Dartmouth IDs were previously nominally required, but in practice blind eyes were often turned). Even if you’re not affiliated, or even if you’re affiliated with another house, you can walk into almost any house to play pong, have a drink, and dance. This is not so at almost every other school with a Greek scene in the country.</p>
<p>If the policy is implemented, to cover their asses, the Greek houses will merely only open their parties to people they know, making the social scene a lot more exclusive and snobbish than it previously was (it actually is already fairly exclusive and snobbish, but much less so than its peers at other schools with Greek systems, I daresay). They’ve already begun rigorously enforcing the ID requirement, and will obviously tighten the screws even more if H-Po seriously enforces this new policy.</p>
<p>The law should be enforced, of course, but there’s always the question of whether an unjust law ought to be enforced, and whether a just law should be enforced blindly without regard to context. Across the nation, most police departments turn a blind eye to drinking on campus, unless you really get in their face. You don’t always get a speeding ticket for driving 2MPH over the limit; likewise you don’t always get booked for drinking underage. Trying to enforce this law by going on sting operations is absolutely ludicrous when the police department could be cracking down on crimes that actually harm people.</p>
<p>As others have noted in various fora, students have already been reluctant to call for medical assistance when students overdose on alcohol, because of the potential legal repercussions – the Good Samaritan policy is supposed to protect informants and the people they Good Sam, but in practice, people feel betrayed when their friends get booked anyway.</p>
<p>Fortunately, it’s a lot harder to drink irresponsibly in a frat, believe it or not. Upperclassmen know when you’ve been drinking too much; it’s the freshmen who are idiots about drinking. I saw many ambulances picking up dangerously inebriated students as a freshman, but now hardly any among my peers as an upperclassman. Unsupervised freshman room parties are a recipe for disaster, but if freshmen can’t get into a frat to drink, that’s what’s going to happen.</p>
<p>The new policy is draconian and it will not reduce the number of alcohol-related medical incidents; if anything, it will likely increase the number. It will also destroy Dartmouth’s relatively open Greek culture. The cops have an obligation to enforce the law, but they have discretion for a reason. Their unreasonable rejection of discretion in this case deserves all the criticism it is getting.</p>
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<p>This is exactly why the drinking age laws should be enforced. The younger students do not yet have the maturity to drink responsibly.</p>
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<p>One thing that will happen is that they drink less, which would be a good thing. Less alcohol available = less alcohol consumed.</p>
<p>The other good thing that could come out of this is that it will force the school and the student body to get serious about providing a social scene and structure for students that revolves around something other than drinking. Up till now it’s been too convenient to just abdicate responsibility and rely on the frats. And unfortunately pretty much the only thing frats are able to think of is alcohol. </p>
<p>No wonder the students are upset. Booze is all they’ve got. It’s the only college social life they’ve experienced. They think if you reduce the drink they think they will be left with nothing. It doesn’t have to be that way. College social life doesn’t have to be that limited.</p>
<p>poetgrl: there’s some slippery slop logic with transposing a local issue onto a national one. </p>
<p>coureur: I’m not really sure what has you so militant, but I can point out some flaws. Just because you shut freshman out of frats doesn’t mean there will be less alcohol available. It’s just as easy to get an upperclassman to buy for you, or to have a fake ID(they do exist). Also the stuff they serve at frats has a very low alcohol content, if freshman are forced to go “underground” in their drinking, there’s a high chance stronger alcohol will be involved, thus you don’t significantly decrease the availability, and you increase the strength of the typical drink. </p>
<p>Also, this new policy, as john mentioned, will keep students from getting help for their peers. Who will goodsam a dangerously inebriated student if they think it’s going to hit them in the face too? Maybe some people, but I can assure you it will be much less likely. Thus, this new policy will reduce the safety of my fellow students, which I can not support. </p>
<p>As far as the social life aspect, I’d argue there is plenty to do besides frat-life. For full disclosure I’m a non-drinker, and on many weekends I don’t set foot in a frat. That doesn’t mean I am not incredibly happy with my social options and activities with my friends. That being said, sometimes I do go to frats, and it is great I can get in and have fun. Forcing this new alcohol policy may force frats to close their doors to only approved guests and those over 21. Even as a non-drinker, I would find this would, in fact, limit my social options, not “force them to expand.”</p>
<p>In general it wouldn’t be hard for someone under 21 to acquire alcohol particularly in an environment where there are so many young people that just turned 21… alcohol will still be available for those who want it. I would argue that it is the kids who end up in the ambulances that will continue to drink but now behind closed doors. If increased enforcement has any marginal effect, it will be on those who are at the least risk of hurting themselves or others while driving those at high risk to riskier situations.</p>
<p>Police in general have a large amount of discretion with how they enforce the law. How to use that discretion appropriately is subjective.</p>
<p>There are other things to do outside of drinking. But I do think that it isn’t pragmatic to believe all that is needed to curb the culture of underage drinking is stronger enforcement (especially policies that in my opinion are regressive)</p>
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<p>gekkoman: As a social person and a non-drinker I can assure you and others a person who doesn’t wish to drink can have an amazing time here, provided they are okay with others around them drinking.
As for why the college would push back-- because they understand that this police action will not reduce the number of students drinking, but rather force them into situations that are less safe and push students to be less willing to get help if needed. In that situation no one wins, well besides maybe the number crunchers on arrests at the Hanover Police Station.</p>
<p>I would definitely say that there is other stuff to do besides drink and I would definitely encourage your daughter to come stay for an overnight visit. Underage drinking is a problem at many schools… at Dartmouth it might be more apparent because of the fraternity system. But there are many people who choose not to drink and find a variety of things to do. (as lame as it sounds “Poker with Professors” is actually a fun event, and where besides Hanover can you buy a movie ticket for $5?) A lot of my friends here do not drink at all.</p>
<p>It is also very possible to enjoy our fraternity system with out being a drinker. While alcohol is available, the funnest parties are those where it is not the focal point. And I have never felt pressured to drink.</p>
<p>In regards to the administration, both former President Wright and President Kim have repeatedly shown a progressive attitude towards underage drinking. Neither one, supports underage drinking but have taken the stance of trying to reduce harm then just trying to rigidly punish students. I think our Good Samaritan Policy (where you can get help for someone dangerously intoxicated with out punishment for either you or the individual) will probably end up saving lives.</p>
<p>^^ Thank you both for your replies. If D does get accepted she will surely want to comeo for a vist (we are in San Diego) as you suggest.</p>
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<p>What has me “militant” is the ridiculous notion that the cops are in some way wrong or unfair for enforcing the law. Also I object to the implied belief that underage Dartmouth students have some sort of “right” to drink, and thus cops should look the other way. I can fully accept that some laws might be unjust or misguided, but as I said, the solution to that is to change the law, not complain that it is being enforced.</p>
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<p>Really? According to Johnleemk in post #10 it is the freshman who are getting hauled away in ambulances due to excessive drinking. Looks like the supposed “very low alcohol content” the frats are providing is still more than enough to endanger people. I can’t understand why people think that is a good thing and want the frats to continue.</p>
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<p>Yes, and buying for minors and using fake IDs are both also illegal. Those laws should be enforced as well.</p>
<p>Also the argument that determined drinkers can still get their booze elsewhere is bogus. There is no illegal activity of any sort that could not also be conducted elsewhere, but that is hardly justification for ignoring it where it is easiest and most obvious. </p>
<p>The whole idea behind criminal law is the make it undesirable and difficult for people to commit crimes and to punish them when they do anyway. Underage drinking is no exception to this.</p>
<p>Yes, underage drinking is illegal, but it happens everywhere. I think it would be better if they make the drinking age 18 so people can actually learn their limits and not go crazy in college and become raging alcoholics.</p>
<p>Hey Masonfactor, I know a Dartmouth student who would love something like “Poker with Professors”. How does one find out more about that? When does it take place? Thanks!</p>