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I'm not trying to minimize anything here, but at my son's frat (in Florida) the hazing, so far, seems to consist of having to do errands, clean up, selling stuff at fundraisers for charity, being designated drivers, going to study hall, dressing up for meals and games, etc.
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<p>If the errands and chores are so extensive that they interfere with schoolwork or are timed in ways that interfere with the pledge's opportunities to eat, sleep, and go to class, they may be considered hazing.</p>
<p>"If the errands and chores are so extensive that they interfere with schoolwork or are timed in ways that interfere with the pledge's opportunities to eat, sleep, and go to class, they may be considered hazing"</p>
<p>Or they may just normal stuff this particular group does for pledges. "Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar."</p>
<p>Would it make sense to harm to a pledge's gpa when it matters VERY much to the frat? </p>
<p>While not dismissing the terrible things that have gone on in some fraternities, again it is with a broad brush the entire concept is being painted with here. Because a few soldiers go off the deep end, do we condem all troops? </p>
<p>One curiousity I have about the hazing aspect... Does this occur more at state schools or private? </p>
<p>Mine are fortunate enought via scholarship to attend small LAC and this stuff isn't happening. </p>
<p>As I said eariler, someone considering joining should ask questions and expect honest answers. If it sounds fishy, it probably is. Rush week means the prospective student can look at many choices to apply to. It's OK to go in and investigate with a skeptical eye, but one should have an open mind. Not every body has a terrible experience, nor are they submitted to humilation or torture tactics to join a frat. My S frat has both Bob Dole and Jimmy Buffet as alumni. Neither strikes me as a person who would allow themselves to be degraded.</p>
<p>Even if the hazing doesn't cause serious injury... it's like- how can u stand to let urself get ****ed on just to belong? Lol some people will do anything for acceptance... Grow up plz.</p>
<p>Yup. When my S was considering joining (against my wishes..at first) I looked em up. Bob Dole and Jimmy B (not the same year..of course) were distingushed alumni. Kappa Sig</p>
<p>Prior to rush, we talked about self respect and my expectations. He's now the acedemic chair (sp?) and reviews prospects to see if they can maintain a strong gpa to enable the frat to continue to rush. He was frat scholar of the year last year (dean's list) and his "little brother" was student of the year(entire campus) for the social work he coordinated (habitat for humanity, frat built a couple homes on edge of campus property for needy) for his brothers. Nice kid. </p>
<p>Not to say they were a bad house before, but kids can come in and change things too. Kids also join to make a difference. Yes, they like beer, but they also help with elementary reading programs, special olympics and what not. Drinking beer and doing good things are not mutually exclusive activies. </p>
<p>I am really sorry to read some of these other horrible things that have happened to some. There are some bad people out there, no doubt about it. However, these bad people occupy all aspects of our lives from our preists to spouses in some cases. It doesn't mean we or our children have to follow suit.</p>
<p>If the errands and chores are so extensive that they interfere with schoolwork or are timed in ways that interfere with the pledge's opportunities to eat, sleep, and go to class, they may be considered hazing.</p>
<p>So far its been OK, at least thats what S says. He spends a lot of time at the house but I think he enjoys spending the time there. So far I dont detect any resentment at having obligations. I think its a novelty; hes excited about it and wants to be a part of it. Ill be the first person to tell everyone if things go south.</p>
<p>Also about the exclusivity There is exclusivity in the sense that different frats (and probably sororities) go after different types. The reason I believe this is that the kids themselves will admit that this frat is the party house, that frat is the jock house, this frat has all the movers and shakers, that frat is the good ole boys, etc. The same seems to go for the sororities- this one is the super religious one, that one is full of beauty queens, this one parties, that one has all the snobs Theres got to be a reason for all this, and it must be that like minded people tend to find one another. </p>
<p>Quite frankly, when I was in college I couldnt identify with the sorority girls. I was more of a hippie chick free spirit I guess. But my son is different from me, even in high school he was always involved in government, sports, liked to get involved with all the rah-rah stuff. Not at all like me. It seems like the frat hes in now is like a continuation of that kind of attitude.</p>
<p>My D didnt' go to a school with Greeks- she is also more of a free spirit type I guess
but her school also has "quirky" rituals that underscore how "quirky" the students are</p>
<p>younger D, likes more structure & while I don't see her joining a school with a sorority- she isn't that social- she gets into her high school spirit way more than I would have predicted.
She goes to football games, plays school sports, dresses up for spirit week, and carries sports bags with her school mascot.</p>
<p>When she attended her small K-12 school, although she was on sports teams, she didn't seem to identify with the school in the same way that she does with her high school.
I see it as a positive thing.</p>
<p>Of course I see her school as a positive place- kids encourage and support one another. I don't hear about backstabbing and harrassment, at levels that I hear about in other places, and her friends cut across school groups.
It isn't uncommon for someone to have 3 or 4 circles of friends, when I was in school, you were pretty much stuck to your own circle, and not allowed out.</p>
<p>I am not an expert on fraternities, having avoided them my entire life, but I always thought the theory behind hazing was that if a person gets anything with no cost, then that thing has little or no value. So the love and attachment that a member has for his fraternity and his brothers is directly proportional to the difficulty in achieving membership. The more intense the hazing, the more they appreciate being part of the organization. I will defer to the psychology pros on this.</p>
<p>"The more intense the hazing, the more they appreciate being part of the organization. I will defer to the psychology pros on this."</p>
<p>Psychology pro here. You are right in that cognitive dissonance would mean that people who are hazed would appreciate their organizations more than would people who didn't have to do anything difficult to join an organization.</p>
<p>It's probably true, too, of people who have to go through painful hazings. Why? One would have to justify to oneself why one submitted to something painful and humiliating. The justification would be that the organization was worth it, etc.</p>
<p>I am not justifying hazing. I am saying why people would willingly endure that kind of mistreatment and then perpetuate it and excuse the people who had hazed them.</p>
<p>Key witness in the Kappa Alpha Psi hazing trial Marcus Jones testified for the
better part of the morning today.</p>
<p>His testimony is crucial for the prosecution in the case where five undergraduate Florida A&M University students are charged with hazing. If convicted, the five could face five years in prison....</p>
<p>Jones was one of 27 men pledging the fraternity who were at a warehouse as part of an initiation process for the Alpha XI chapter of the fraternity.</p>
<p>At the trial, Jones walked in the courtroom carrying a cushion, which he placed on a chair before sitting in the witness box. ...</p>
<p>He described in detail incidents that took place on Feb. 23 and 24 at a house in Tallahassee where he and other initiates were beaten and punched....</p>
<p>At the warehouse on Feb. 26 and 27, Jones said the initiates were asked to stand in a line. Someone would pull him out of the line; he would get into the cut position and was then beaten. Someone would then push him back in the line."</p>