What's the deal with liberal arts schools?

<p>Stop bickering, everyone.</p>

<p>Mindset:
National University: career-oriented, pre-professional</p>

<p>Liberal Arts College: "learning for the sake of learning," self-improvement</p>

<p>Teaching:
National University: Teaching Assistants/Graduate Students fairly common, professors distracted by research and publishing, renowned faculty may not know how to teach/may not be interested in teaching</p>

<p>Liberal Arts College: All classes taught by professors, professors not pressured to research or publish to retain tenure, most professors intent on teaching, developing personal relationships with students</p>

<p>Quality of Life:
National University: More social opportunities and cultural activities usually due to location and size of student body, availability of fraternities and sororities, etc.</p>

<p>Liberal Arts College: Smaller student body, more isolated campus, not as many social or cultural opportunities as a result, etc.</p>

<p>Academics: With the exception of National Universities such as Brown, Dartmouth, or Princeton, one will receive a higher quality and more well-rounded education at a liberal arts college.</p>

<p>Everything I've written entails common generalizations, and I'm sure there are exceptional universities or colleges that defy normal conventions.</p>

<p>
[quote]
Yet, 'it is probably better to be in the top ten of the national universities rankings than it is to be number one of the liberal arts colleges...

[/quote]
</p>

<p>The man is clearly a biased tart, and should be forcibly ejected from his job.</p>

<p>
[quote]
Brown has lower admissions rate than Amherst.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Don't number of people who apply and yield maintenance figure into this statistic?</p>

<p>icantfindaname, if you're going to pretend you're a lawyer, you should at least do spellcheck (and fact check.) I said absolutely nothing about guidance counselors or exceptional students. Again, reading skills icantfindaname, reading skills. Lots of books available out there to sharpen them.</p>

<p>Harvard Inc.
A new book on Lawrence Summers and the crisis of meritocracy.
By Stephen Metcalf</p>

<p>"The so-called "meritocracy" is in crisis—and Harvard, its flagship brand, is hardly being spared. </p>

<p>Quite the opposite. As Harvard can afford to staff its faculty almost exclusively with superstars, and as superstars are loath to teach, the gap between the global power of the brand and the actual quality of the education delivered is quite large. If you want to impress a shopkeeper in Yemen, by all means go to Harvard. If you want the best education for the money, you might want to consider Swarthmore or Williams."</p>

<p>Larry Summers was often quoted while the president of Harvard that given it's vast resources (35 billion) it could be both Harvard and Williams and offer a better undergraduate education than it does.</p>

<p>Also...one dude who created the methodology guessing 10 years ago that Dartmouth would "probably" be ranked number 1 as a liberal arts college (look how much all the rankings have changed since then!)...I think Dartmouth fans are putting way too much stock into that. You're really pulling hairs trying to pick a best college out of Amherst, Brown, Dartmouth, and Williams.</p>

<p>WSJ or any other conservatives/pro MCCain people certainly wouldn't be raising this fuss if it was McCain who had twice the money and not the other way around. All that money -- no no donations from lobbyists and PACs! Republicans are just swilling in their own frustrated envy</p>

<p>I will consider the source and not take offence. Lets not get personal or is it personel? Never said I was a lawyer, just the degree, I have at least some principles or is it principals? You are correct that the cite or is it sight, needs a spell check or is it chech, I am to or is it too or two, lazy to cut and paste from word just to get the spelling right or is it write.</p>

<p>
[quote]
I don't think this general statement is helping the OP very much because another person can easily say "Brown > Amherst. Dartmouth > Williams." Brown has lower admissions rate than Amherst. The editor of USNWR expressed that Dartmouth would rank #1 if placed into the liberal arts category.
"Yet, 'it is probably better to be in the top ten of the national universities rankings than it is to be number one of the liberal arts colleges,' Morse says. 'Dartmouth would probably be first in the liberal arts rankings.'"

[/quote]

Williams has higher endowment/student than Dartmouth
Williams has higher alumni giving back rate
Williams sent more of its students to top med/law/biz schools than Dartmouth
Dartmouth gets a huge boost from being in the ivy. If Dartmouth is in the LAC category, it will be at Middlebury level, at best.</p>

<p>I bet Dartmouth would be top 5, I can't imagine it would be ahead of Amherst, Swarthmore, and Williams (that is not to say it isn't as good, or better, for some students).</p>

<p>oh please, icantfindaname, go back to your legal work. Or whatever it is you do other than misread people's questions and answers. Surely with ALL that education you can do more productive things than surf cc? (And it's Wharton and not Warton. Its not it's -- since you're asking.)</p>

<p>...I feel bad for this poor girl. All she wanted was a little information about LACs! :p</p>

<p>:))
tenchar</p>

<p>^^ really? what about her uninformed father? Is that all there is to feel bad for her? =)</p>

<p>"I bet Dartmouth would be top 5, I can't imagine it would be ahead of Amherst, Swarthmore, and Williams (that is not to say it isn't as good, or better, for some students)."</p>

<p>My unoffical third child goes to Dartmouth, his mom and dad went there and oddly both went on to Wharton, and my youngest to Williams, they are both here at the moment and they claim the schools are equal based on a sample of two, to, too. The younger brother of the Dartmouth jr just got into Yale (they grudgingly all agree that Yale is better).</p>

<p>calendarxgirl - one thing that might resonate with your parents is the fact that the few LACs that still exist today are more or less a snapshot of higher education as it existed at the turn of the twentieth century: small, unitary, campuses where, for the next half-century, the baccalaureate was the most common terminal degree a middle-class American could aspire to. The phrase, Ivy League, or Ivy campus has its roots, quite literally in this world.</p>

<p>Everything that has transpired since that time (the G.I. Bill, Sputnik, The Scientific Revolution, Title IX) has been built on the shoulders of those early LACs, some of which went on to become research universities (Yale, Princeton, Brown) some of which chose not to (Amherst, Williams, Swarthmore, Haverford) and some of which are comfortable with one foot in both worlds (Tufts, Wesleyan, and Dartmouth.)</p>

<p>What they all have in common is their commitment to undergraduate teaching, green and spacious campuses, and a commitment to produce leaders out of proportion to their number of graduates.</p>

<p>The IPEDS data was collected to show that graduates of LACs are not at a disadvantage, compared to big U grads, at earning advanced graduate degrees. In fact, some people see the list as LAC-top-heavy. LACs are in bold below.</p>

<p>Here are the top-60 per capita producers of PhDs in all fields:</p>

<p>Percentage of graduates receiving a doctorate degree.
Academic field: ALL</p>

<p>PhDs and Doctoral Degrees:
ten years (1994 to 2003) from NSF database</p>

<p>Number of Undergraduates:
ten years (1989 to 1998) from IPEDS database</p>

<p>Note: Does not include colleges with less than 1000 graduates over the ten year period
Note: Includes all NSF doctoral degrees inc. PhD, Divinity, etc., but not M.D. or Law.</p>

<p>1 California Institute of Technology 35.8%<br>
2 Harvey Mudd College 24.7%<br>
3 Swarthmore College 21.1%<br>
4 Reed College 19.9%<br>
5 Massachusetts Institute of Technology 18.3%<br>
6 Carleton College 16.8%<br>
7 Bryn Mawr College 15.8%<br>
8 Oberlin College 15.7%<br>
9 University of Chicago 15.3%<br>
10 Yale University 14.5%<br>
11 Princeton University 14.3%<br>
12 Harvard University 14.3%<br>
13 Grinnell College 14.1%<br>
14 Haverford College 13.8%<br>
15 Pomona College 13.8%<br>
16 Rice University 13.1%<br>
17 Williams College 12.7%<br>
18 Amherst College 12.4%<br>
19 Stanford University 11.4%<br>
20 Kalamazoo College 11.3%<br>
21 Wesleyan University 11.0%<br>
22 St John's College<a href="both%20campuses">/b</a> 10.6%<br>
23 Brown University 10.6%<br>
24 **Wellesley College
10.4%<br>
25 Earlham College 10.0%<br>
26 Beloit College 9.6%<br>
27 Lawrence University 9.5%<br>
28 Macalester College 9.3%<br>
29 Cornell University, All Campuses 9.0%<br>
30 Bowdoin College 9.0%<br>
31 Mount Holyoke College 8.9%<br>
32 Smith College 8.9%<br>
33 Vassar College 8.8%<br>
34 Case Western Reserve University 8.7%<br>
35 Johns Hopkins University 8.7%<br>
36 St Olaf College 8.7%<br>
37 Hendrix College 8.7%<br>
38 Hampshire College 8.6%<br>
39 Trinity University 8.5%<br>
40 Knox College 8.5%<br>
41 Duke University 8.5%<br>
42 Occidental College 8.4%<br>
43 University of Rochester 8.3%<br>
44 College of Wooster 8.3%<br>
45 Barnard College 8.3%<br>
46 Bennington College 8.2%<br>
47 Columbia University in the City of New York 8.1%<br>
48 Whitman College 8.0%<br>
49 University of California-Berkeley 7.9%<br>
50 College of William and Mary 7.9%<br>
51 Carnegie Mellon University 7.8%<br>
52 New Mexico Institute of Mining and Technology 7.8%<br>
53 Brandeis University 7.7%<br>
54 Dartmouth College 7.6%<br>
55 Wabash College 7.5%<br>
56 Bates College 7.5%<br>
57 Davidson College 7.5%<br>
58 Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute 7.2%<br>
59 Franklin and Marshall College 7.2%<br>
60 Fisk University 7.1%</p>

<p>^ But that doesn't mean that liberal arts schools are better than research universities.</p>

<p>middsmith,
"Williams > Dartmouth" is not true. I never claimed Dartmouth is better than Williams. I believe they are on the same tier. If you read carefully, you would have noticed that I said that a person can easily find supports for why Dartmouth is better.
1. Dartmouth has higher average SAT scores.
2. Dartmouth has lower admissions rate.
3. Dartmouth has rank #5 for the number of Fortune 500 CEOs. It's ahead of Wharton.
4. Dartmouth has graduate schools that offers undergrads opportunities to do researches and to take graduate courses.
5. Creator of USNWR ranking claimed Dartmouth would be #1 on the liberal arts list if it was ranked on that list.</p>

<p>The truth is. Dartmouth and Williams each has its own advantages. The OP must decide what advantages are most important.</p>

<p>as i began looking into schools more extensively, i became interested in some liberal arts schools. my parents, who REALLY want me to go to the ivies, are horrified by the thought of me attending a liberal arts school. (The best school to attend is the school that's right for you.) It might not necessarily be the Ivy-League schools. Two of my friends are at Harvard Summer School right now. One said that her first-year chemistry class had 93 students in it, and there were several TF (teaching fellows) helping out the students in labs. I promptly told her that when I visited Swarthmore, its first-year chemistry class had 10 people and no TA's. She was quite jealous:) . Another friend at Harvard Summer School was absolutely gaga over Harvard--she just feels like she has to go. When I asked her why, she really didn't know. She said that she had her reasons, but the reasons she gave were very superficial (campus looks nice, people are funny, Harvard yard is nice) without giving any reasons concerning the education, the professors, the resources! She talked to me yesterday and told me that after she went to her classes, she decided that while Harvard may be great for graduate school, for undergrad she wants smaller classes that are more like seminars, rather than just lecture after lecture, which she was experiencing at Harvard. </p>

<p>Why am I saying this? I'm trying to show that you can't "judge a book by its cover," so to speak. In other words, try to visit Harvard first, and then judge it, not by its prestige, but by its quality. At Swarthmore, one of the psychology professors, Andrew Ward, said that he went to Harvard but didn't like that he was treated as a second-class citizen, and that the professors cared more about research. He encountered professors like this when he himself taught for a bit at Stanford and UCLA. Now he's happy at Swarthmore, because he sees that the professors at Swat (which is liberal arts) really care about the undergrad.</p>

<p>Think about what you want to get out of college. Is it wisdom, growth, knowledge? What is it? That's important. You should seek the colleges you think will help give you those things. At liberal arts schools there are fewer resources, but I still advocate these schools, because a small school is more conducive to personal growth.</p>

<p>honestly, i don't know much at all about them. my father constantly stresses their lack of resources, their lack of variety in classes, the horribly small population of students, and the less than average professors... but i'm pretty sure he's a biased source who's just trying to stray me from the idea.</p>

<p>It is true that there are fewer resources, there is less variety in classes. Look at a course catalog for small liberal arts schools. There definitely are fewer, in general. That's a fact. However, you'll generally be learning the same things at a liberal arts school as you will at a big university. You're not going to take more courses at a university than at a liberal arts school. But he has a point. I mean, when I looked at the courses available at Swarthmore, I thought that it was not very much. However, one person who went to Swarthmore found that it was like a candy store with so many selections. I'm aware that I'm talking about Swarthmore a lot, but that's because I'm headed there, and I know more about it than any other school. I would disagree with your father, and argue that the teachers at liberal arts schools in general are better than those at universities. They care more about teaching. However, I can see that at the Ivy-League schools, your teachers will be more well-known in academia, in general. For instance, the highly-regarded teacher of Chinese history, Jonathan Spence, teaches at Yale.</p>

<p>what are the main differences between liberal arts schools and other colleges? (in terms of mindset, teaching, quality of life, academics, etc) and haha i already know that they're very small in population so you don't have to mention that. </p>

<p>Okay, it's hard to generalize, because the quality of life at one liberal arts college can vary very much from that of another. But in general, liberal arts schools, because they're so small, tend to center social life on campus. Also, you might not like knowing the same people and hanging out with the same people for four years. And the small size could be claustrophobic. That's the main downside of the social life, I think. </p>

<p>basically i'm asking for a compare and contrast. thanks to anyone who can help me out! </p>

<p>It all depends on what you're looking for in a college, and what learning environment will help you learn more. I hope this helped.</p>

<p>"4. Dartmouth has graduate schools that offers undergrads opportunities to do researches and to take graduate courses."</p>

<p>I can't see this being an appealing aspect in a ranking of liberal arts colleges. We could have gone to universities - we chose to get away from that!</p>

<p>"5. Creator of USNWR ranking claimed Dartmouth would be #1 on the liberal arts list if it was ranked on that list."</p>

<p>He said "probably" and he said it ten years ago. So what? The rankings change all the time. I wonder why people keep bringing that up.</p>

<p>As for selectivity differences, I don't think you could really say that Dartmouth is more selective than Amherst/Williams. It has a slightly lower acceptance rate than Williams (and the gap between Dartmouth and Amherst is almost negligible) but I think that LACs in general have much more self-selected applicant pools. The difference in SAT scores isn't really a factor you can consider above all else (Amherst in particular has been reaching out to low-income students, and they stress this above SAT scores. Could they have a more stats-oriented admissions process if they desired? Absolutely.) I feel silly even talking about this.</p>

<p>
[quote]
"Williams > Dartmouth" is not true. I never claimed Dartmouth is better than Williams. I believe they are on the same tier. If you read carefully, you would have noticed that I said that a person can easily find supports for why Dartmouth is better.
1. Dartmouth has higher average SAT scores.

[/quote]

10 or 20 points/2400 does not make one school better than another.

[quote]

  1. Dartmouth has lower admissions rate.

[/quote]

That's because everyone is applying to 8 ivies hoping to get into one. If you look at yield rate, I think it's more reflective of how top students value the school.<br>

[quote]

  1. Dartmouth has rank #5 for the number of Fortune 500 CEOs. It's ahead of Wharton.

[/quote]

This is really silly. Do you think you'll go to a school where it's ranked #5 for the number of CEOs or do you want to go to a school where it can place you at a greater rate into top med/biz/law schools? The percent of students from Williams going on to top schools are quite a lot higher than Dartmouth. You should have a more reasonable expectation.<br>

[quote]

  1. Dartmouth has graduate schools that offers undergrads opportunities to do researches and to take graduate courses.

[/quote]

With lower endowment and having to support graduate students (free tuition, stipend), the undergrad is at a disadvantage.</p>