<p>How does one decided between these two stellar LACs? How does a non-athlete who is an orchestra musician but will not major in music decide between the two, assuming cost is the same? What’s great about each school? What’s not so great?</p>
<p>They both have great reputations as stellar schools. I think you should try to visit both schools and try to get a feel of what the campuses are like. I'm sure that will help you a lot. You can try reading reviews at U n i go .com, which have generally accurate reviews, of Swarthmore at least. Reading those reviews will give you a good sense of the pros and cons of Swarthmore, and probably of Amherst too.</p>
<p>Up 'til October, I would have said, "you pick 'em".</p>
<p>If you like easy access to cities and the airport, Swarthmore. If you like college towns and a big college area, Amherst.</p>
<p>If you like a lot of diversity balanced against a hipster geek crowd, Swarthmore. If you like a lot of diversity balanced against a New England prepster jock crowd, Amherst.</p>
<p>If you like football, Amherst. If you like debate team, Swarthmore.</p>
<p>If like Science and Engineering, Swarthmore. If you like biz school, Amherst. And, so on and so forth.</p>
<p>Now, I think you have to look at the purse. A year ago these where both powerhouse schools in terms of finances. To be blunt, Amherst mismanaged their endowment and now there is a signficant difference in financial resources over the next few years.</p>
<p>Because of their cash flow problems, Amherst is now saddled with twice the debt -- $330 million versus $165 million. That's a difference of probably $7.5 million a year in interest costs. So on top of the severe belt-tigthening all colleges are doing, Amherst has to tighten its belt $7.5 million a year tighter than Swarthmore does. That's gonna leave a mark. Amherst has $503 million in cash call commitments while Swarthmore has $223 million -- on roughly the same size endowments.</p>
<p>Meanwhile, Swarthmore got its new science center built. Amherst didn't. Swarthmore got its Arabic program up and running. Amherst offers a couple of courses taught by a temporary 5-college post-doc.</p>
<p>Amherst is signficantly increasing its enrollment and, despite what they may say, the debt load will prevent them from maintaining the same student faculty ratio.</p>
<p>Swarthmore hasn't added a student in a decade and plans to increase enrollment by 34 students in the next four years. They just finished 150 new dorm rooms, so they've got empty beds.</p>
<p>And finally, Swarthmore's administration has never been as misleading about finances as Amherst's top administration was this week. I think they violated the whole point of education, which is to help students understand complex issues. </p>
<p>There may well be legitimate reasons to pick Amherst, but I would take a long hard comparative look at the implications of finances over the next four years.</p>
<p>Interesteddad, I generally think you make very good points, but I want to stick up for the debate team here, in case any debaters are reading this thread. I may be biased because I'm on the Amherst team, but I hardly think it's obvious that someone looking to debate in college should choose Swat over Amherst. The debate teams at both schools are relatively equal, if anything Amherst's is slightly better. Team success this year has been almost identical (in fact, a hybrid Amherst/Swat team made semifinals at a large tournament a couple weeks ago), but unlike Swat, Amherst isn't losing any debaters next year. We also just hosted the North American Debate Championships this past interterm.</p>
<p>Yeah, but does the debate team at Amherst throw the best parties on campus? I was thinking more about the role the debate team plays in the social scene at Swarthmore viz-a-viz the football team at Amherst. <grin></grin></p>
<p>Swat had a pretty good year. They were ranked 8th in the United States for American Parliamentary debate and then went to the World Championships in Ireland for British Parlimentary Debate. They upset Cambridge University's A team to make it to the round of eight where they ended up in an insurmountable bracket against two Oxford teams and the Yale team.</p>
<p>interesteddad (and anyone else in the know) I have been reading these posts about finances for a while but I confess I don't really understand it all. A is one of the LACs my D applied to along with Wes and Conn Coll. In addition she applied to 3 ivies (D, H, B) and RPI and a couple of safeties. She is actually very excited about A because she thinks she will get in and really liked the school. I am interested in the school's reputation, not to be a snot but more for the employment/grad school opportunities after graduation. Do you think all this financial stuff is really going to SERIOUSLY affect A? Like jettison its reputation or do you think it will be more of a speedbump that will change things a little? There was some really scary stuff going around about RPI in Nov but that situation seems to have gotten better - check their threads too. My problem is I don't really have a good grasp on all this financial stuff and I want to spend my college $$$ wisely for my daughter.</p>
<p>scratch this last post - I have started a new thread with it</p>
<p>This is ridiculous. This was supposed to be an objective and unbiased assessment of the two schools, and once again interesteddad has warped the thread in his favor by talking about endowment mismanagement. ffs.</p>
<p>I'll put it in a simple way, and may end up responsible for attrition to Swat, but, whatever.</p>
<p>If you are fiercely intellectual and highly academic, and you prefer a student body on the intellectual side, choose Swarthmore.</p>
<p>If you want a interesting mix of all sorts of people, most of whom are intellectual but also on the laid-back side, choose Amherst.</p>
<p>Neither Amherst nor Swarthmore will be making significant changes to their Financial Aid programs. Both schools, especially Amherst, are keenly aware that FA makes or breaks a great number of amazing applicants whose financial situation stands in the way of an elite liberal arts education. And, since Amherst dedicates itself to creating a diverse student body, it would not betray its central mission and core values by cutting Financial Aid. It's not going to happen.</p>
<p>And, regardless of how great a hit our endowment has taken, Amherst still has more money than scores of top national research universities--no kidding. The long-run consequences of our current financial situation on our students' quality of life are negligible.</p>
<p>Very well put, kwu...thanks for the post!</p>
<p>Gosh, I'm almost too frightened to ask a follow-up questions for clarification after witnessing that contentious debate about finances. </p>
<p>My original post was meant to try to get a feel for the type of culture a student would find at the two schools. Which school would be more receptive to a biracial student who grew up in liberal Minnesota? </p>
<p>I spent some time in the Boston area in my own college days, and as an African American, I wasn't all that thrilled with the racial atmosphere in Massachusetts or the city of Boston. I still remember vividly those thugs from Southie attacking that black lawyer with the pole of an American flag because of rage over school desegregation and busing in the the Boston area. The photo made the front page of the NY Times, Boston Globe and every other newspaper in the country, circa 1977, if memory serves. I went back to the area 10 years later as a working stiff. It wasn't any better, that I could tell. I lasted two years and beat it back to the Midwest.</p>
<p>Granted, we have not visited Amherst. We've visited Swarthmore twice and were very impressed, and a bit intimidated. All we know about Amherst is what we read in college guides, College Confidential, and U-N-I-G-O, but it's still hard to get a read on the campus culture, on the issue of tolerance when it comes to race. Secondly, which is the better school for post-college employment, assuming grad school is not in the plans?</p>
<p>I don't care about all that endowment stuff, or the elite, high-brow debate team stuff. I just want to know which school would be a better fit for my kid, a biracial kid from public schools. Thanks</p>
<p>Plainsman, I know very little about Swarthmore. My son requested the DVD that admissions makes available, but after watching it he decided Swarthmore was not for him. Just one of those reactions to myriad subtle cues about what defines a Swarthmore student. I'm sure it's a terrific school, but the impression I get is pretty well summarized in kwu's post:</p>
<p>"If you are fiercely intellectual and highly academic, and you prefer a student body on the intellectual side, choose Swarthmore.</p>
<p>If you want a interesting mix of all sorts of people, most of whom are intellectual but also on the laid-back side, choose Amherst."</p>
<p>Being anglo and from the west coast I don't have your insight on the racial environment, but the Amherst campus seems quite diverse, and the general area is not at all urban. It seems to be pretty relaxed, small-townish, and with multiple colleges contributing to the student mix.</p>
<p>Probably a visit to each school is the best way to get a feel for them. It might be interesting for your son/daughter to meet with other African American and bi-racial students and hear what they have to say. I think the "liberal Minnesota" part would be comfortable at either school. :)</p>
<p>Plainsman, my D is a freshman at Amherst, bi-racial, and from public schools. I can say without doubt she has asimillated (sp?) beautifully into Amherst life from day one. I sometimes prod her and ask her if there is ANYTHING she doesn't like about Amherst, and the answer is always NO! Neither her being bi-racial, being lower socio-economic, southern, coming from public, not private schooling has been an issue for her, not overt or otherwise.</p>
<p>I can only speak to our (mine and D2s) impressions of both schools. We visited Swarthmore in a tandem visit to Haverford. We attended the info session at Swat and found the admissions counselor, students and even the campus rather high-brow and somewhat intimidating. The students were quite unique and wore their intellect as a badge. Then we met with the sport coach. The coach spent the entire meeting talking about the academics and high scholastic expectations of her team. Now academics is very important to D2 but she wanted to hear about the team and the team's chemistry. The coach barely spoke about the team and only at our insistence. D2 left that meeting and knew Swat was NOT for her. This was about 18 months ago.</p>
<p>We visited Amherst last Fall. Talked extensively with the coach; she met and had lunch with the team. The team is from all over the country but mainly from CA. She felt very comfortable both athletically and scholastically with them. There was a contentment that she felt at Amherst that was definitely not there at Swat. (She applied ED to Amherst and is ecstatic about attending this Fall.)</p>
<p>Now everyone is different and everyone's experiences result in individual impressions. I don't think that race will make a difference at either school. Swat seems all about individuality; Amherst seems more than accommodating to everyone. Good luck with your decision.</p>
<p>Well, if you want to know about race and team chemistry, perhaps a story from two years ago will help better understand Swarthmore.</p>
<p>The women's basketball team was in the middle of a game when the assistant coach gave a pep talk during a time out and urged the Swat team to pass the ball because "they don't like to play defense, I've coached 'em" refering to a basketball stereotype of the African American players on the opposing team.</p>
<p>The next day, the Swarthmore captains (one white and one black, if I recall) went to the Athletic Director to voice stenuous objection to the assistant coach's comments. The Athletic Director wasted no time in making it very clear that those kinds of comments or attitudes were not acceptable in Swarthmore athletic program. He accepted the assitant coach's resignation the following morning.</p>
<p>This was all handled by the students on the team and the Athletic Department. There was no need to escalate the incident up the ladder to the administration. A sports coach will never supercede the commitment to diversity and just treatment of diverse groups.</p>
<p>I guess I don't quite get the Swarthmore basketball incident. I am currently a senior on a high school basketball team. Our coach has pointed out many things about our opponents during time outs. In fact, he has made a point of telling us whether a team is notorious for running the floor and taking 3 point shots, without passing the ball. Our coaches comments have nothing to do with race, but has everything to do with the offensive philosophy of our opponent. I can understand a racial component if our coach, or any coach said, "We are playing a team made up of inner city African-Americans and they are notorious for not passing the ball." </p>
<p>One of my teammates and myself are very successful 3-point shooters. When we are on the floor we never pass the ball because our coach tells us to hold on to the ball, look for an open shot, and shoot the 3. By not passing the ball, the chance of getting fouled is pretty good (we are excellent free throw shooters, as well). I know other coaches have tried to "defend" our style of play with very little success. So the comment made by the Swarth coach (as it was worded in the previous post) does not sound racist to me unless there was a direct reference made to a specific player or players of color.</p>
<p>
[quote]
I can understand a racial component if our coach, or any coach said, "We are playing a team made up of inner city African-Americans and they are notorious for not passing the ball."
[/quote]
</p>
<p>That's exactly what happened. The assistant coach said words to the effect, "blacks don't like to play defense". It was a racial comment about the players from an historically black university.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Women’s assistant basketball coach Bridget DiCave resigned Feb. 8 after making allegedly racial remarks concerning the women’s basketball team from Lincoln University, a historically black university, during a game against Lincoln the day before.</p>
<p>According to a player who asked to remain anonymous due to the sensitive nature of DiCave’s dismissal, the remarks were something to the effect of, “All black players are lazy. I know because I have coached them before.” The player heard about DiCave’s remarks from two players who were sitting next to the coach when she made the comments.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Women’s</a> basketball struggles; coach resigns - The Phoenix</p>
<p>I don't like the way this discussion is going. First, let me make clear my opinion about choosing between Amherst and Swarthmore. They're both top schools. You can get a good education at either of these liberal arts colleges. The differences in the schools lies in things like student life, weather, extracurricular opportunities, etc. It's hard to get a grasp of what student life at a college is like if you don't attend the college. The next best thing is to visit the school and talk to some professors and students. What do students talk about? Do you think you'll fit in? The next best thing is to read reviews by former and current students of the schools. Trying to pick between two schools is difficult, because life at the schools is hard to guage. It's a complex thing to sort out. I can almost guarantee that no matter how much research you do, your experience at a college won't be quite what you had imagined it would.</p>
<p>The difficulty of guaging what student life is like at a college means that you shouldn't try to generalize the attributes of a school. I think it is cruel nonsense to say that "If you like football, go to Amherst." Are you kidding? People aren't so one-dimensional as to be only football-likers or non-football-likers. Swarthmore doesn't have a football team, but by no means does that mean that people who love football won't like it here, and the fact that Amherst has a football team and Swarthmore doesn't should not lead to the conclusion, the overblown generality really, that football fans would like Amherst more than Swarthmore. </p>
<p>Deciding between two schools, like deciding between two fancy houses, isn't a matter of black and white. What if we applied such generalities to choosing a house? If you like pink, choose house A. If you like a mountain view, pick house B. I pity the man who buys a house using that thinking. It's much more important to try to guage which house you'd like more. How do you do that? By going to the houses, staying there, and making a comparison between the two. Sure, noting the differences between the houses is a good thing, but saying that a single preference decides the house or college is unacceptable. </p>
<p>I had to make a decision a while ago between Swarthmore and the University of Chicago. If someone had told me, "If you like the city, choose Chicago. If you like having a lame excuse for a college town, pick Swarthmore," I would have picked Chicago right away. But there were more subtle and important differences. In the end I picked Swarthmore, in large part because the financial aid was much better, but I would have been fine at Chicago (although I probably would be upset because the economy currently sucks). In the long run I can probably pay the loans out, but it would not be pleasant. I mean, the quality of U of C can't be worth all the extra money I'd have to pay to go there.</p>
<p>I don't know much about Amherst or Swarthmore's financial aid, but what's important is how much the parents have to pay. Can the family afford it? That's certainly something to consider. If your family can afford Amherst and there's a consensus that Amherst is the way to go, then go for it!</p>
<p>To answer Plainsman's direct question: I think a biracial student who grew up in liberal Minnesota would do fine in both schools. Both schools are open to diversity. The major differences are in social life and the general environment, the "vibe" that the colleges have. That'll make the difference. I don't know the reputations of Amherst and Swarthmore in terms of employment. I get the feeling that it would be difficult to go to Swarthmore alone and go high in the ranks in terms of jobs. That's because at Swarthmore you're not trained for a job; you're getting a liberal arts education. Job training comes in graduate school, which is one reason why such a high percentage of Swarthmroe graduates (and probably Amherst graduates) go on to graduate school--to get the practical or specialized training they missed in their undergraduate years. What matters more in terms of employment is the student's work experience, not the name of the school. They probably have similar reputations--they're regarded as good schools by those who've heard of them, but I don't know how many employers are familiar with Amherst, Swarthmore, or liberal arts colleges in general.</p>
<p>I'm glad that ShesOnHerWay's daughter is excited to attend Amherst. It's all about fit. But you can never quite guage exactly what Amherst or any other college will be like, exactly. You can only make guesses based on your interactions with the schools--e.g. talks with the coaches, the opinions of the relatively small number of students you talk to, a one-day visit. Surely these things give you a feel of what the schools might be like, but the feel that you get could be very different from the actual experience. That's why students transfer--the reality didn't match the expectation. </p>
<p>It's a good idea to do your best to decide, but don't stress out over it too much. Get a feel for the student life at the campuses, because that will probably be the deciding factor.</p>
<p>Thanks for supplying more info to your previous post, interesteddad. There was an obvious racial component in the statements made by the basketball coach at Swarthmore. I have been playing competitive basketball at all levels, with all types of kids for over 10 years. I have never experienced any references made to a players race or his background.....only his ability (or lack thereof) to play the game.</p>
<p>Right. It was definitely a racial comment. I think a lot of teams and a lot of ADs would have just let it slide or maybe handled it with a slap on the wrist unless the incident blew up. I was pleased at how swiftly and firmly the Athletic Director made a clear statement. It was over in a day and the students could feel good about the response of the school.</p>
<p>Plainsman:</p>
<p>Don't know much about Swarthmore, but on Amherst I think you should google "Tony Marx" the Amherst president and read what he has to say about the importance of diversity. More importantly read about what he's done at Amherst in regard to diversity.</p>
<p>Then I'd suggest you buy "Race and Class Matters at an Elite College" by Elizabeth Aires, an Amherst College sociology professor. It is a study of four groups of students from the Amherst College class of 2010. (affluent whites, affluent blacks, whites with high financial needs, limited family education, or both and similarly situated blacks) based on online questionnaires and individual interviews of the students. She studies the issues these students face as well as the benefits of the college's diversity to the community as a whole.</p>
<p>It's not wholly positive, but reading through it you certainly come to the conclusion that the diversity at Amherst teaches something to almost everyone. You can buy it on Amazon.</p>