<p>cpt, you have such wonderful insight! Good for your son! I wish him the best of luck!</p>
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LOL, I don’t know what you think of your pediatrician in general, might be a good friend of yours. But I would just love it (on one level at least, I know it is better if kids are more mature and polite) if the kid were turn to him and say “What the hell is the matter with you saying something like that to me? First of all it is none of your damned business, and second it is rude as hell. How would you like it if I were more sensitive on the subject and you just made me feel terrible about it? What exactly did you think you would accomplish saying something like that?” People like that just frost me, in case you couldn’t tell.</p>
<p>The pediatrician is a flake. I don’t know a better diagnostician, a smarter doctor, but when it comes to common sense, he is lacking. And rude, and invasive. Bought also kind and loving and caring in many other ways. We take him the way he is, as we have known him for a very long time and have gone through some tough times together. </p>
<p>It all bounced off of my son. He is not sensitive that way. I’m the one that was a bit hurt because I felt that was the way a lot of folks felt. It has taken me a while and some great successes on S’s part for me not to feel the same way, though I did not say anything of the sort to my son. Neither H nor I were particularly pleased with S’s choice. But it met the financial critieria and we wanted him to make the choice, so we held our tongues. Neither of us like our other sons’ choices either, so this is not new. Just because I know what is logical and importnant doesn’t mean that I have some emotional prejudices about the subject. The whole idea of HPU does not sit too well with me either, on the surface, but I force myself to go below that and see how something can truly benefit some people whether I like it or not.</p>
<p>I looked at the USNWR (yeah I know) and looked at the other schools in the top 10 bacc colleges in the south (among which HPU is number 5) </p>
<p>All of the others have significantly lower costs of attendance. (Ive also never heard of them, but thats neither here nor there, I suppose) Its definitely an outlier. That would I think, raise eyebrows. Its tuition is closer (if i read it right) to the cheaper among the elite national universities, or the most expensive OOS publics. It seems clear that the tuition is high based due to its lifestyle amenities. I am SURE there are students out there for whom it is the perfect match, but its hardly surprising that it raises eyebrows. Especially on a board where you can’t say “NYU” without stirring a hornets nest of hatred, and where there is considerable controversy about whether studying anything non technical at a third tier institution is more worthwhile than community college.</p>
<p>There have been a number of schools in the south that are attracting attention in the NE. James Madison, Elon, Sewanee, College of Charleston are all schools that were just not see on the college lists up here. Now I see them listed as destinations on several things. Two kids I know went to Roanoke college and several more were looking at schools in the south that were not familiar to me, and I did look through the Southern colleges lists.</p>
<p>The southern schools tended to be less expensive than their northern counterparts, most notably in the room and board numbers. That’s what kills the bargain rates here in NY with the SUNYs. The room and board is waaay up there. Must be the winters in the north that do this. </p>
<p>Yes, there is elitism, snobism in many of us, myself included, but my kids have managed to humble me in this regard.</p>
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<p>I can’t even believe that you consider this a valid question for discussion. The entire reason for colleges to exist is to provide education and advancement of knowledge. Everything else is window dressing. To suggest otherwise is frankly a bit offensive to those of us who actually value education and the learning process.</p>
<p>So even though your question is outright farcical, I’ll answer it anyway. If a kid is not “interested in academics”, should they go to college? No.</p>
<p>I completely agree with soze. If there is doubt about their interest, then community college makes sense to see if they can catch the knowledge bug. Otherwise, if they absolutely have no interest and it is more a matter of growing up, they can join the military or get a real job (not so easy right now and even harder with only a high school degree). Maybe flipping burgers or stocking shelves for a while will get them interested in academics, but even when times were better, lots of people went to college that really should have picked a different path.</p>
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<p>Extactly right. Oh, and I do not buy the harsh winter excuse as the reason for the higher costs. More heating bills in the NE, but higher electric bills because of greater and longer A/C usage in the south.</p>
<p>Just to add, I looked at the meal plan at school in the NE and saw that it costs slightly over 3,000 for the semester, or 6,000 for the year. A school in a less expensive area might be charging exactly half of this amount for their meal plan.</p>
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<p>I say, “sure, why not?”</p>
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<p>While I agree with this sentiment on an emotional level, the practicalities of today’s world show us it’s not actually true in reality. For most people, college is a means to an end. It’s vocational training with a special piece of paper at the end. For these people the purpose of college is the path to a job; not the path to more learning. </p>
<p>So, to me, saying a kid shouldn’t go to college if he’s not interested in academics is a little harsh. Millions of students are seeking degrees in accounting, nursing, teaching, journalism, etc., and will do just fine despite slogging through the academic requirements without enthusiasm. They’ll graduate and become productive, contributing members of society. I see no harm in that nor any reason they should not go to college.</p>
<p>I agree with some of what cptofthehouse and what DougBetsey is saying. One of my friends is working herself through cosmetology school and has been since about halfway through her senior year. She goes to class every day from 5-10pm and learns and practices on people at the Temple which is by Paul Mitchell. She has such a passion for it and will be a great cosmetologist. Her path is different then a lot of my friends but she is doing it because she loves it and knows that going to a four year college won’t really help her.</p>
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I cannot quite agree with this, although I concede there is an element of truth to it, especially with some majors. But that makes it sound like cosmetology, as mdemvizi describes and which I heartily agree that for this and similar professions like auto repair, plumbing, etc., people that want that don’t need college. I suppose you could look at engineering that way (after all we straight chem majors always said they are just glorified plumbers, lol) but in reality it is far more than that. Engineers and other majors, if they are attending the vast majority of colleges, have to take courses in other areas and be exposed to literature, a foreign language in many cases, history, etc. This makes it very different than vocational training. It may not be black and white, but if a person has no desire for academics, there are ways to be trained in many of these areas without going to college, or at least not to a traditional college program, which I think was what cptofthehouse and soze meant.</p>
<p>My third one is currently in college and doing extremely well by every standard. Any parent would be proud to have a college student in his situation. He was not interested in academics his senior year of high school, admitted that he only was going through the college shuffle because of the momentum, and because he really had no idea at all what else to do. We decided to go through the entire app process because it is just so much easier to do so because of the senior year momentum with everything right there and the school involved the process. Figured he would take a gap year to decide what he wanted to do, but we would at least have a college option for him.</p>
<p>Well, he went, and took off. Which happens a lot. Kids also plummet too, so it’s no sure fire thing, but unless you give it a try, you just don’t know. </p>
<p>Most kids who go to college are not that interested in academic pursuits. They also don’t have any other specific direction they want to go either. I’d have no problem with my kids learning wood working, any trade, vocational, tech school. If they had a burning desire to do anything right after college, I would consider supporting it. They didn’t know. They had no true direction. No major, no idea. (The exception being my performing arts son who had no desire for academics either but knew he wanted to go into the PA field). College is really a place to stash them and hope they find something that interests them that can be useful in getting them self sufficient. That is really the whole purpose. </p>
<p>A bunch of his classmates did take a gap year. Some of them did some amazing things that year. Most of them because their parents found some great activity and paid for them to partake in it. Two kids traveled abroad and their itineraries were totally parent made. Not saying all kids are that way, but these that I knew didn’t so strongly want to do anything so their parents found something. And they enjoyed the year off, are now in their colleges, but I truly don’t think they are any more rejuvenated than my son was in going straight to college. In fact, they are a year behind, have spent money on some adventure that now can’t be used for college, and they are wistfully planning another big trip of sorts as soon as they can. College didn’t turn out to be as enjoyable as that year off. They’ll take a junior year abroad, maybe graduate a semester or a year behind and then take another year doing marvelous things. Their parents can afford this and I have no doubt that in the future these kids will put these experiences to good use. I can’t afford to do something like this. If my kid doesn’t want to go to college, he has to work or find something to do that doesn’t cost me money, because then he won’t have it for college. It’s purely an economic reality here.</p>
<p>There are many debates here at CC and really everywhere about whether many people should even be going to college. The number who go who should not, made apparent by the drop out rate and their own say so about not wanting to continue school, makes for a reasonable argument against going to college for many of our kids. But in our case, it seemed the best of the alternatives that we listed. Even my PA son who had a direction would have preferred hitting the auditions in NYC rather than going to college, but the idea of an 18 year old let loose in that environment…well, he didn’t seem ready to me, and the training he got in college enhanced his resume as well as giving him some time to mature around other kids his age.</p>
<p>Many of us middle class and upper middle class parents use college as a way station to send our kids until they get a little more mature, more responsible,more knowledgeable more capable and get some credentials that may help them be more employable as well. My son now has a BFA, and a group of contacts from his program that he knows well. He also now knows how to dance well, and has a solid core of knowledge that he was unlikely to pick up as completely on a catch can basis. He took an organized, deliberately paced 4 year program in his area. He’s read the landmark books, knows the opinions, debates and backgrounds, and has had structured lessons, all of which I think he is better having had this experience. Though there is the occasional shining light that does fantastically well without the official training, getting it all on his own, that is a rarity.</p>
<p>So, yes, I advocate sending many of the kids to college who are not interested in academics if they are willing to give it a shot. And if there are schools like Highpoint that can take those kids and teach them something, get some interest in academic and get a degree in that time, I support the program.</p>
<p>Soze, our colleges have evolved to a point where much of the money is being spent on non academic things to attract and keep the students. Like student apartments , things for the kids to do, abroad programs, state of the art athletic facilities, work out centers, food courts, concerts… you name it.</p>
<p>When we toured CMU a few months ago, I was struck by how the tour guides emphasized how much fun it could be to go there. I consider CMU a top work college in terms of academics. Salt mines of the colleges, in fact. And yet they too, are trying to emphasize the non academic amenities of that school. I guess it is a given that the academics are intense there. Our sleep away school are very different from what other countries have in the way of a university education.</p>
<p>I’m just going to chime in and disagree 100% with Soze - yes - college is still an option for kids who are “not interested in academics” and let me explain why. I think this issue crops up more with boys than girls. I think high school sucks the life out of a lot of kids. There are many college graduates out there who do not consider themselves to be “academics” - they went to college, graduated, got a job, etc. - and really - isn’t that what most of us do? We can’t all be intellectually hungry and thirsty for knowledge just for its own sake.</p>
<p>Many kids come into their own at college - they mature - they discover they love a certain subject they were never exposed to in high school - they become inspired by a gifted professor, etc. I’m not wearing rose-colored glasses - I know that some of them will party too much and flunk out. But I say - give a kid a chance. If it takes amenities and the wow factor of a school like HPU to whet someone’s appetite for college - than maybe HPU is the right fit for that student. There are several thousand colleges in the US with varying levels of selectivity for a reason - getting a college education means different things to different families. But I’m hard-pressed to imagine a situation where a teenager does not benefit from attending college and I’d hate to write someone off because they are not into academics at 17.</p>
<p>Mine did. And if it takes a school like High Point to bring out this blossoming, and if a family can afford to send a student there, I’m all for it. In fact, I’m adding it to my son’s list as a school to investigate.</p>
<p>People should go wherever they can learn whatever it is that they want to learn. If that’s college, fine. If it’s trade school, fine. If it’s on the job somewhere, fine. And if the place that teaches what they want to learn is called a college, and you don’t think that what they’re learning is academic enough, well, isn’t that just too bad for you?</p>
<p>Imagine! I want to learn how to make dresses. The only place near me that teaches dress-making is Local State College. I refuse to go because places called “college” shouldn’t teach vocational subjects like dress-making…it’s a matter of principle!</p>
<p>How ludicrous.</p>
<p>cptofthehouse, I sent a PM to you.</p>
<p>rockvillemom and mantori did a better job of saying what I was getting at in post #249. Thanks.</p>
<p>I don’t disagree with the arguments of cptofthehouse and rockvillemom. I think what I was trying to say and maybe didn’t get across is that often kids that really don’t belong in college feel pressured to go anyway, when what they really want is trade school or an apprenticeship. I think that is equally unfortunate, and should be stated alongside their arguments as well, I hope they would agree.</p>
<p>However, I must disagree with mantori.suzuki. Just calling something a college doesn’t make it a college. One cannot have this kind of discussion without consistent definitions, and I think we all were talking about a place that is accredited by a recognized body as a college/university. If all the Local State College does is teach dress making, I doubt it would be accredited as a college. If, however, it is a true college that has a dress making major but also requires more than learning dress making (presumably broader requirements are needed to get accredited), then fine, that is a college.</p>
<p>fallenchemist- Very well said, and I completely agree about the pressure on many students to attend college. Many students in my area leave for college and are back at community college or in the work force the next year, I have heard from a school official that it is well over half. It is more the parents of our area, not the school. Sometimes other options are not offered, along with an appreciation of the value of something other than college, such as the trades. Not everyone needs “college” or “academics” to produce a finely tuned car or a sumptuous cake…they need respect and appreciation from everyone else.</p>