<p>Ivies and other top schools have the best professors in their fields, and I do not think that this can be debated. I would feel much more comfortable with a noble prize winning physicist than some guy who graduated from community college in say Montana. However, I really believe that the material is available for anybody hungry enough to learn it and it would not matter what school you went to as long as you had the drive to succeed. People going to top ranked schools just for the name are not going there for the right reasons, but the people going to top ranked schools to seriously further their education should be commended for their hard work and effort. Not all schools are going to offer a person the same acedemic experience, but again if the drive to learn is their, a person could be a college dropout and could have the same knowledge about medicine as a graduate from Johns Hopkins.</p>
<p>Celsius,</p>
<p>Our original poster was talking about prestigious schools and how the perception of lesser known schools as being less worthy. I find it interesting that you say that people are bitter, and I am assuming that you are referring to my comments. I was posting to help this student understand that a college education is more the name of the school. While some students do go to Ivy league institutions, the vast majority go to lesser known schools around the country, and get a fine education, nonetheless. </p>
<p>For the record, I did my undergrad at USC, after transferring from a public state college and my post grad at UCLA. In terms of teaching, some of my best classes were taught by instructors, and some of my worst classes were taught by nationally known professors/experts in their fields. </p>
<p>I stand by my statement - you can get a good education wherever you go. </p>
<p>Five minutes after you get your first job, few people will ask you where you got your Bachelors degree. It will be about your skills in the workplace, how hard you work and how effective you are. Your future employment will be influenced by your connections and networking - and some of those connections may be made in college. </p>
<p>Yet, it is not the end of the world to go to a state college. Or a private LAC. Not everyone can get into Harvard, but there are 3000 colleges in this country.</p>
<p>Richard Rivera,</p>
<p>I do find it interesting about the diverse college lists that seem to have been created by highlighting rankings on a list, instead of self-reflection and analysis of where the student would best fit. </p>
<p>I was talking with a top student at our local high school recently who takes a great deal of time to process information. She is also something of a procrastinator. Brilliant, but doesn't like to be rushed. Her preliminary college list had schools that had mostly quarter systems. She didn't do her homework - she didn't even consider this option when she was researching schools. Why? Rankings. She was chasing the rankings, instead of those schools that fit her learning style.</p>
<p>Kindaslick,</p>
<p>Ha ha! I would love to know what school you could attend that hired community college graduates from Montana. Good one.</p>
<p>There is no doubt that Nobel Prize winners are intelligent. That may not guarantee their ability to teach you the subject material! Teaching is a gift, and not everyone has this ability.</p>
<p>The way I see it, Top 50 colleges are good for the following reasons.</p>
<ol>
<li>Really good professors can "dumb" it to down to the students' level. They can find good analogies to describe concepts that are very foreign to students. For example, in my highschool, there were two computer science teachers. One went entirely by the book and whenever a question was asked, she would read off what's on the powerpoint. From observing her, I realized that she did know the material, but she did not know the material well enough to convey it in a way that struggling students can understand the concept. On the other hand, the "good" teacher knew the material well enough that whenever a question was asked, she was able to separate the concepts into small enough parts that the students could take them in.</li>
<li> The average class tends to be faster paced than that of really big schools that have higher acceptance rates. Unless you are in an honors program, I think you will get many classes where there are a large number of students.</li>
<li>Motivation. This last reason's mainly for me. If my peers around me are motivated, I tend to be more motivated too. I hate to admit this, but I am influenced greatly by my surrounding environment. If I am around people who like to party and play videogames, I would in turn want to party more and play more videogames. If my professors really love what they're teaching, chances are I would start to share that interest. I know this is discouraged by many (just proves how unmotivated I am; still trying to change that), but I try to be a little bit above average, so if the average level of aptitude around me is low, I would only try to be just a little bit better than average.. A higher average means how much harder I'll try. Just a bit competitive.</li>
</ol>
<p>Please correct me if I'm wrong about college, since I'm just a rising senior and don't really know what to expect in college. What I've gleaned is from my wanderings on CC and the internet.</p>
<p>Woami,</p>
<p>It is good that you figured out what motivates you before you go to college. Top 50 schools are great - but what if you found several that were lower on on the list? Would that discourage you from attending? Is there an imaginary line on the rankings list where you won't cross? </p>
<p>I do like your analogy about the teachers. I agree. There is a difference between knowledge and ability to teach the concepts!</p>
<p>I just tossed out top 50 because it was a well known number, but I don't think that I would cross off colleges just because of their rank. I would look at how well regarded the professors are by the students in my intended area of study and go from there.</p>
<p>Littlegreenmom,</p>
<p>Well actually... all the OP did was point out was that on CC, everyone seemed to be going to Ivies. He said that on CC, it seemed that so many other schools seemed looked down upon. Nowhere did he ever say that HE thought the other schools were worse. In fact, he states himself: "You are exposed to the same MATERIAL at ALL colleges. It is YOUR job to TAKE ADVANTAGE."</p>
<p>Here, I am arguing against both of you that it is not as ideal as you would like to believe. Believe it or not, what college one goes to does matter. Not all colleges provide the same education/material. Not all colleges provide the same opportunities for one to take advantage of.</p>
<p>I am not saying that other "lesser" schools should be ruled out. However, you should not neglect the fact that what school you go to does actually matter. To argue that is like saying, it does not matter what school (not just college) you go to, it does not matter where you live, it does not matter what friends you have. </p>
<p>If you truly believe that your environment DOES NOT matter, then you are truly ignorant. One who grows up in Africa will have a completely different view of life than one grows up in UK. Will have a completely different perspective than one who lived in Korea. Why do people say to travel around? It is to experience the different cultures, values, and attitude and gain a deeper sense of life.</p>
<p>If you DO believe that environment affects you, then you must realize that the environment at Mississippi State College (MSC) will be different from Columbia. From Yale. Agreeing with what Woami said, the more intellectual environment found at Columbia and Yale will differ from the environment at MSC.</p>
<p>You're also arguing that rankings do not matter. While I do not fully support rankings, they are helpful to a certain extent. Unlike what you said, people do not apply straightforward to the top 12 colleges. They look at which colleges have their majors. Which colleges fit their interests. Which colleges have the best environments/locations. I for one, am interested in majoring in Business. However, I did not pick up the list of Top Undergraduate Business Schools and apply to the top 10. I looked through them and applied to them accordingly. That is why I did not apply to Emory or Notre Dame, because they did not fit my interest. </p>
<p>You claim that the college you go to does not matter, but it does. Unless you are blindly ignoring the average salary after graduation and % of graduates who find a job after college, then you will see that there is a noticeable difference. Therefore, it makes more sense if one goes to Yale instead of MSC if one gets accepted into both. Not only will going to Yale provide a better education and more opportunities, but the chances of success after attending Yale will be greater.</p>
<p>And there is this thing called "Pride" that many people have. They like to be able to say, "hey I went to Berkeley" or "yeah I went to UCLA". Would you not agree that people would be prouder saying that they went to Berkeley than to MSC? Why should you argue that rankings do not matter? It is an incentive to strive for higher. By saying all colleges are the same, you are telling someone that it does not matter if he is lazy and gets straight C's throughout high school. Why should he work hard if there is the "same opportunities" in any college? Believe it or not, but most people who get into Ivies and "prestigious colleges" have worked hard to get in.</p>
<p>I also find it sad that you would speak of your own college this way:</p>
<p>Littlegreenmom - "I went to a college that wasn't in the top 30 of those rankings when I went there in the late 80's. It is a large private college on the west coast. Would I send one of my kids there? No. Yet, the alumni tend to be extremely generous with their donations...and it is now ranked at 26 in the nation."</p>
<p>First of all, you are not proud of the own school you come from and second, you speak negatively of your own school publicly. Which is just sad and says a lot about you and your character. Schools can change, just like people can change, and I believe that USC has changed so that it is a great school. Here you are arguing that rankings do not matter, yet you use what colleges you went to in order to defend yourself (to prove you are not being bitter, perhaps?). Isn't that a little hypocritical?</p>
<p>I also stand by my statement - what college you go to does matter and not all colleges will offer you the same opportunities and education.</p>
<p>You also said: "Your future employment will be influenced by your connections and networking - and some of those connections may be made in college." </p>
<p>I hope you admit that there will be better connections to be made at Yale than at MSC.</p>
<p>Of course, it is not the end of the world to go to a state college. It is not even the end of the world if you get straight C's. Or D's. Or F's. It is not even the end of the world if you don't complete high school. Yet, it is always best that people strive for the higher and I believe that rankings, to a certain degree, would help and motivate people to do so.</p>
<p>PS: Sorry it's so long. =P I hope you will read this and offer your opinion.</p>
<p>^Longest post I ever wrote. :P</p>
<p>Read it, it's good!</p>
<p>
[quote]
Generally, prestigious colleges are those that are in the top 50 on the US News and World Report College Rankings guide. Many of them are Ivies. Few of them are state colleges and universities.
[/quote]
Ivies are 8 of the top 50. State schools are 17 of the top 50.</p>
<p>As others have noted, many CC posters have the mentality of "Ivy League or Bust." I think one poster actually has that as his username! In response, other posters try to convince the prestige whores to abandon their attitudes. But the way they go about it is frustrating. Typically, they try to convince you that rankings don't matter, that the top schools really aren't any better than flagship state schools, that professors at HYPS are inaccessible, and so on. It is also common for "fit" to be emphasized above all else, the implication being that no one could possibly fit in at a top school.</p>
<p>The fact is that HYPS are fantastic schools, and there are plenty of good reasons to choose them besides prestige. As a current Princeton student, I can say in no uncertain terms that I am getting a better education here than I would be getting had I gone to the next school on my list (still in the top 20). How do I know this? By talking with high school classmates who attended the other school and comparing classes, opportunities, etc. I wish that otherwise well meaning posters would focus more on downplaying the importance of prestige in college selection and less on attacking the very quality of schools which are prestigious.</p>
<p>I totally agree with Celsius and Weasel - you both took the words right out of my mouth. :)</p>
<p>^Thanks Weasel. I agree completely on the attitudes of some people. You can succeed regardless of where you go (generally), but to say the schools are the same or of the same quality is flat-out wrong.</p>
<p>And the rest of those 50 prestigious colleges and universities tend to be private universities with large endowments.</p>
<p>Weasel,</p>
<p>Your quote: "I wish that otherwise well meaning posters would focus more on downplaying the importance of prestige in college selection and less on attacking the very quality of schools which are prestigious."</p>
<p>Nobody doubts that these schools are excellent. The intellectual quality of these schools is not in question, nor was it ever a point to be debated. The point that I was trying to make was that there are other excellent schools available to students. If you are Ivy-bound, or a current student at one of these colleges, congratulations! You are definitely in the minority of college bound and college students/alumni. </p>
<p>What I find difficult about the rankings is that many, many students only look at those numbers and not about what is right for them. The vast majority of college-bound students will not attend. Fit is about finding what works best for all kids, whether it is one whose future will be at one of these elite schools, or one who wants to study at the other 2990 colleges in the country!</p>
<p>My point was that a good education can be found at many schools. I never once said that Mississippi State rivaled Princeton in terms of professors or campus amenities or even post-college employment. Yet, the reality is that MOST people will not attend one of these top 10 or 20 colleges, and may still love their colleges, what they learned while there and even get an amazing job post-graduation! </p>
<p>Everyone has the right to go to college, and feel good about their choice. The problem with this site is that the very attitude that you mentioned (Ivy or bust!) does prevail - often - at this site. When I posted my original comments to the OP yesterday, it wasn't about putting down a school or highly ranked schools. If it is at Harvard, awesome. It is is at Sonoma State, great. Make the most of your potential and your abilities - wherever you choose to attend, and be happy about it. </p>
<p>It isn't Ivy bashing to say this. It is encouraging the rest of those out here in CC land that</p>
<p>Celsius,</p>
<p>Pride is an interesting thing. You mentioned that I lacked school pride. Not true. What I said was that I wouldn't send my kids to this school. This particular school does have an excellent reputation for many academic programs. It is a spectacular campus with amazing architecture, school pride and support of numerous, highly ranked athletics teams. It is also in a terrible neighborhood. This made it a challenge to enjoy my college years there. After the Los Angeles riots, the surrounding neighborhood got even worse. Just for the record, this is my OPINION. Nothing in the rankings told me this and I have formed my opinion from living in the area and experiencing this, firsthand.</p>
<p>Part of the college experience is feeling comfortable exploring the neighborhood, volunteering in the community and working internships. Perhaps my experience was different than others. </p>
<p>I also had many profs that were more interested in publishing than undergrads. Again, my own experience. It might be different, now. </p>
<p>Your quote completely takes my previous posts out of context. I never said that all colleges are the same. What I said is that, while not everyone can go to the Ivies, there are plenty of great colleges out there for students and you can get a fine education wherever you go. </p>
<p>Some colleges have better alumni networks (I never used mine, to be honest, and still got employed. Amazing, huh?) Some have more Nobel Laureates. While the dream of many is to attend the Ivies and the most highly ranked schools, few in this country will have that opportunity. There are a finite number of spaces. Not everyone has the talent or the interest to attend one of these colleges. Yet, as I said before, the vast majority of college graduates will be coming from less well known schools. </p>
<p>I could point out line by line your post and how you completely misconstrued my comments, but it wouldn't push the conversation forward. The point that CC'ers need to understand is that you should go to college and there are many options out there beyond the Ivy League. </p>
<p>When choosing a college, look at what the institution can offer you - and what you can bring to the college. What you seek out of a college may be different than your friends. Visit the colleges. Realize that you may change your major, so make sure your college has all of the possible programs you think you might be interested in! Get involved. Work hard. Help others. Don't take things so seriously.</p>
<p>You are saying something totally different from what you said earlier. I think by saying that I "misconstrued your comments", you actually mean that you rescind your earlier arguments.</p>
<p>Regarding USC:
"Would I send one of my kids there? No. Yet, the alumni tend to be extremely generous with their donations...and it is now ranked at 26 in the nation."
===> Tell me how else to interpret it besides the fact that you think USC does not deserve its ranking and that you think USC only got their ranking from the generous alumni donations. </p>
<p>Regarding colleges:
"I really dont buy this "good college" crap. You are exposed to the same MATERIAL at ALL colleges. It is YOUR job to TAKE ADVANTAGE."
===> College9 claims that all colleges offer the same opportunities.</p>
<p>"Would you say that the professors are accessible at your HYPS school? It is often said that they are most focused on research/writing, and sometimes do not pay attention to undergrads."
"It isn't Ivy bashing to say this. It is encouraging the rest of those out here in CC."
===> Is this not Ivy bashing?</p>
<p>Arguments bought up in my argument that you conveniently left out:
===> Here you are arguing that rankings do not matter, yet you use what colleges you went to in order to defend yourself (to prove you are not being bitter, perhaps?). Isn't that a little hypocritical?
===> By saying all colleges are the same, you are telling someone that it does not matter if he is lazy and gets straight C's throughout high school. Why should he work hard if there is the "same opportunities" in any college? Believe it or not, but most people who get into Ivies and "prestigious colleges" have worked hard to get in.</p>
<p>Another hypocrisy:
"Some colleges have better alumni networks (I never used mine, to be honest, and still got employed. Amazing, huh?)"
= "Connections do not matter."
"Your future employment will be influenced by your connections and networking - and some of those connections may be made in college."
= "Connections do matter."</p>
<p>===> However, if you now admit that Ivy Leagues are indeed better schools and that those going have a right to be proud. That the school one goes to does impact one's life. That not all schools offer the same opportunities. Then I think the argument's over.</p>
<p>Celsius,</p>
<p>After being told I am a hypocrite, bitter and you have called my character into question, this is my final response to you. </p>
<p>I wish you the best in college. Wherever you go, the best approach is not to attack others for their opinions. You HAVE taken a question that I asked another poster out of context when I asked about the accessibility of professors. You HAVE made disparaging comments in attack mode. I NEVER said one type of school was better than another. What I did say was there were many choices out there for ALL students. Is this hard to grasp? Not everyone will attend a highly ranked school. </p>
<p>To clarify one other point, when I mentioned that I never used the alumni network it was to say that people can succeed based on their knowledge and their efforts, not just because of WHO YOU KNOW. </p>
<p>You (and everyone) else will get out of college what you put into it. </p>
<p>Rankings - and this is a fact - have changed over time and YES alumni donations are part of the criteria. This is not an arguable point. Do some research into the methodology of rankings, and you will see that some colleges never come off the list, and some move up. Some of it has to do with the numbers of applicants that apply and are rejected. It is fascinating. My point for bringing those up in one of my earlier posts was to suggest that the process for ranking schools is influenced by this and many other assorted factors - selectivity, retention rate, etc. Very little in the rankings tells us what students think about the school once they are there. There are other types of surveys that address these questions, but they don't sell magazines each year.</p>
<p>My point about schools from my own perspective is that you can get a good education not just in the well known schools. For the record, most of the students who attend colleges today are using the same - if not similar - textbooks from campus to campus. There are differences in teaching style and what the professor or instructor brings to the classroom experience. Some are better than others in EVERY school. </p>
<p>I also mentioned in other posts that every student needs to work hard while in school - and that applies to high school or college. I am NOT saying that those who coast through high school or college will achieve the same things out of life. </p>
<p>I appreciate the time and attention that you put into nitpicking parts of my posts. It shows a persistence that will pay off for you in college. What you have done here on CC is take things out of context from one of my posts to another, when there are several conversations with each other, is not advised. In college classes, you will find a range of opinions. You may disagree with your prof or a classmate, often. The problem is when you resort to name calling. Not cool. </p>
<p>I am sure you didn't mean to attack me repeatedly in a public forum. Perhaps I touched a nerve? If so, I apologize. I was under the impression that this site allowed public opinion and communication on the topic of college. This is a site devoted to people's thoughts about the college process. We may disagree, but I would hope we could do it in a more civil manner. </p>
<p>So - best of luck.</p>
<p>The reason why so many people on CC are obsessed with Ivy league schools, is that it makes them feel superior to everyone else.</p>
<p>The truth is, life just takes work, and you should try to accomplish as much as you can with what you are given. After all, not all of us can afford the enormous bill for an Ivy league education.</p>
<p>Quite frankly, the answer to your question is that 80% of this forum consists of d-bags, and the fact that internet aliases tends to heighten the elusiveness of you identity increases that d-bag-ness a hundred-fold. That's why.</p>