<p>You are absolutely correct about the students being oblivious to the ramifications of their class choices. While you can lead the horse to water...</p>
<p>But to make the system more fool proof (although they keep coming out with better fools no matter what you do) when a student submits a class choice for the upcoming year (after thoroughly -cough- going over the original report) they should receive a report showing how their class choices either narrowed or broadened their school possibilities (matchs become reaches, etc). as compared to the original report. Give 'em 2 weeks to change their minds and accept their decision.</p>
<p>I can see the next comment coming of how parents don't know a "good" college from a "bad" college, and why Jr. (after getting his 2.0 in remedial classes and attending Truckstop State U), can't go to Harvard Law School.</p>
<p>My problem has been that until very recently when I said "you can't get into a good college with those grades" the kid would start screeching that everyone goes to college and I would say not good ones and she would say well, Mary goes to Truckstop State U and SHE had bad grades, so you think Mary is stupid? Putting me in the politically incorrect position of saying yes, I think your friend Mary is an idiot slacker...However, the kid is likely to trust what her guidance counselor says so I'd like the guidance counselor to give her the facts ASAP.</p>
<p>Welcome to the dumbest decade of your life. That decade when your child is between 15 and 25, when suddenly you lost all that wisdom you had in their impressionable years and then suddenly become wise again when they have finished school, started working and come to the realization that "Geez, the folks were right!" </p>
<p>LOL</p>
<p>I guess perhpas having some initial salary surveys from these various schools would be useful as part of the college advisement package, but when your kid finds out that Mary will earn $1 an hour more than the kid asking "Do you want fries with that?", s/he may well decide that college isn't worth the hours of study, after all. Yikes!</p>
<p>At some point, once given the facts of life from an unbiased source, a kid has to learn to live with the consequences of his/her poor decisions.</p>
<p>I do hear you about needing an emotionally-detached responsible, knowledgable person to help guide these hormone-driven kids through the most critical decisions of their lives.</p>
<p>Unfortunately, at most schools, that is a random chance event that a kid will latch onto this adult who has got the right answer and the kid's ear. I've yet to hear of a fool-proof system for hiring teachers/counselors that kids identify with. And then to get enough of these individuals with enough band width....</p>
<p>Ugh...the GC college timeline!! At DS/DD's high school, the GC used to meet with the kids for the FIRST TIME re: choosing colleges, etc, at the beginning of their SENIOR year. By the time the GC met with DS, he had already sent all of his applications. Waste of time. I was on a Guidance Advisory Committee, and strongly recommended that FORMAL meetings with students begin at the beginning of their junior years at the latest. Some kids won't have a clue, but it may give them some ideas. Some kids will be ready for some guidance. Some families actually PLAN visits to prospective colleges during the junior year. It would be helpful if the GCs could offer input prior to that time. NOW...that, of course, assumes that the GC has some helpful input to offer. Some high school GCs are just terrific and are very responsive to students, and are actually helpful in the process. DD's counselor (we requested a change after the experience with DS) was very responsive, and helpful with the logistics. He wasn't particularly helpful with college choices as DD was applying WAY out of the region. But he was extremely well informed re: school in this region (and most students DO apply within their region). DS's GC, OTOH, was not well informed about schools that were not the usual "go to" places. She was a discouraging sort. </p>
<p>Anyway...back to the title of the thread...personally, I think that the GC's need to be doing their encouraging BY the start of the junior year.</p>
<p>One problem with the general sessions that many schools have to explain the process to sophomore students and their parents is that they are addressed at the general school population. Advice that is appropriate for a student that typically scores in the top 1% on standardized tests and gets straight "A"s in hard courses is not appropriate for a a kid in the 85 percentile with a "B" average, though both will go on to college. The first kid really needs someone to be looking over there shoulder from 7th grade on to make sure that they are in the best possible position by the end or their junior year. The second kid can wait until the end of their junior year without any serious negative consequences. The real problem comes with a student who scores in the top 1% and gets a "B" average. If this student listens to the advice for the general population they will reach the end of their junior year and be very disappointed with their options.</p>
<p>In our HS, the kids have a list of subjects that they can expect to be requirements from different level colleges. That is, very competitive schools will expect AP this and that, Four years of a foreign language, state schools will expect blah, blah, blah. The school district itself requires this: blah, blah, blah. All of that is written in their course booklet that they get in January. Eighth graders have an assembly with the HS guidance counselors explaining those choices. Generally, the HS requirements will get you in any of the state schools if you get above a B average.</p>
<p>As far as real guidance, I like our guidance counselor but I never counted on her for college guidance. Between books and bulletin boards and websites, I think that my kids and I could figure out college choices for my kids better then an overworked counselor. </p>
<p>We started visiting colleges for my daughter in the early Spring of her junior year. That was too late and it was very difficult to schedule enough colleges before they closed for the year and she had the AP tests, and finals. When she should have been doing her college aps, she still had colleges to visit in the fall and she had marching band and the fall drama.</p>
<p>I learned from that and we started visits with my son the summer before junior year. If the kids have three season EC's, it just makes sense to start the search earlier. So what if the list changes? The more schools my son saw, the more thought he gave to what he wanted.</p>
<p>I think it was late Freshman or early Sophomore year. DD and DH went to a workshop that was hosted by our high school. It was run by an ex-Ivy league admission officer. He gave a few example, ie student files, and let the parent/student through the whole process as to who got in and why. It was an eye-opener for DD and DH.
GC also had meeting with all students in 10th grade and 11th grade about colleges. The focus is mostly on UC/CSU.</p>
<p>College counseling is touched on in 9th grade as schedules are planned. Sophomores take the PSAT for practice and results are discussed in Jan. (I think just in groups.) The first individual conferences (with parents invited too) aimed specifically at college planning take place late winter/early spring of junior year. We actually didn't have ours till after spring break because Mathson's GC was busy having a baby and I was pretty comfortable with the probable list anyway. The GC had a list of colleges she thought were Target/Reaches and Target/Safeties and compared Mathson's scores and grades with those who'd been accepted in the past. Mathson's final list had many of her suggestions, but we did add three that weren't on the list - Stanford, WPI and Harvey Mudd.</p>
<p>I was inspired by this thread to look up the website of the Guidance Dept. of Lexington, MA high school, which is one of the best around. It has guidelines starting for the sophomore year. LHS</a> Guidance and Counseling</p>
<p>I recall when S1 started in 9th grade, the GC told parents and students what math sequence to take in order to be competitive for college. At the end of sophomore year, parents and students were invited to attend a general college counseling session discussing issues such as PSAT. More specific advice came during junior year, including a list of suggested colleges for students to visit and consider.</p>
<p>I agree. There's more time spring of junior year to do so. School vacations do not often coincide with spring breaks at colleges, making it easier to see campuses when students are around and classes are being held.</p>
<p>Not to be completely obnoxious on this point but for those of us in economically disadvantaged rural areas w/o many colleges in our own backyards, getting visits in requires prior planning and starting early. It's expensive to visit. It may take all of Jr. year to save and fit them in so I still say Spring of Junior year in my community is too late.</p>
<p>This is what I also did. I googled a couple of school districts that I know are top notches, their guidance should be more than adequate. I did the same with some top notch private high schools. With the invention of the internet, even if you live in a rural area and your counselor is not great, you can still obtain lots of information from many different sources.
You can also visit some of these colleges virtual. Sometimes, it's not just money, it's also lack of time for some people.</p>
<p>I take your point. The converse is that many students are not very focused on college at the beginning of junior year. So the early months might be better spent identifying which colleges to visit, by looking up websites, checking admission requirements, etc... By spring, many high schoolers have begun to think more seriously about college and their visits will be more productive.
Still, some students apply without visiting, reserving their time and funds for April, when they have to choose between the colleges that have offered admission.</p>
<p>99cents: There are indeed some great high school websites with lots of college-related information.</p>
<p>99 cents, I totally agree, but I am talking about kids who are trying to rise above where their parents are and parents who are at a loss or who lack the desire to help them. </p>
<p>marite you are totally right they aren't focused on creating a list ..one of mine isn't interested much in the college search either and she has me. But looking at websites would be a great start. I really just want them to all have options and I hate that inaction and ignorance may be shutting doors that could otherwise have been left open.</p>
<p>Historymom, where I live it is pretty rare for students to make college visits. At my son's high school at least 25% of the senior class (maybe more) dropped out before the end of senior year. And this is NOT an "economically disadvantaged" area -- it is a working class suburban area. </p>
<p>I do now recall a teacher who arranged annual college tours during spring break each year-- so I suppose the college-bound could sign on for those... but my son's first college visit took place in March of his senior year. Most of the young people my kids grew up with end up at the local CC or nearest CSU. I think my son was one of maybe 4 student in his graduating class who ended up at a private college -- it was actually a banner year for the school, because 10 kids actually got accepted to Berkeley, which was a huge improvement over previous years -- in fact my son had also applied to UC Davis despite having no interest whatsoever in attending, on the rationale of "that's where all the smart kids from my high school seem to end up"</p>
<p>I understand the CC fascination with fit and visiting, but when you raise that as something necessary to do after junior year... in my eyes that is pie-in-the-sky. My son did his research from books and online. My d. did make some visits, but it was something she instigated and she traveled alone -- and in any case my d's experience was very different because she attended an urban school in a different city with a much larger percentage of college bound students. Still.... a lot of them ended up at the community college after graduation. </p>
<p>I just think it is wishful thinking at best to think that in "economically disadvantaged rural areas" there are going to be all that many students wanting to make college visits. I know that although my kids each applied to 3 UCs, like most of the other high-achieving students in their schools, neither was at all interested in visiting the campuses. In the meantime, you have GC's who are fighting an uphill battle just to make sure that kids pass the exit exam and stick with school through graduation.</p>
<p>I'd also note that in my working class area, there aren't many parents who are able and willing to pay for their kids to attend college, and the cost of a UC is out of reach for a lot of kids. Because of the high cost of living in California, these are families with earnings of $60K or above who may be living in very modest homes with high market values --so despite the hype, most won't qualify for the level of need based aid that will make an elite college affordable -- in any case, with the quality of the schools, its pretty rare to see a kid in contention for an Ivy-caliber school.</p>
<p>Okay, at daughter's school, all students take the same classes each year, which exceed California UC requirements. There are no guidance counselors; each student has a teacher mentor assigned when they enter the school. That mentor has about 25 mentees and works with just them for four years. They all meet together every week. The weekly meeting program includes work on thinking about colleges from the very beginning; the goal is 100% acceptance and attendance at 4 year colleges, which is exactly what they've attained. </p>
<p>Because every student takes the same courses, there is no concern about which classes to take; a 10th grader will take 10th grade English, Math, Science, Social Studies and Spanish. The mentor becomes the primary recommendation writer, because that person has known the student for four years and knows about the student better than anyone else. Every year, each grade has an all-class trip which relates to their studies for the year and includes college visits. For example, 10th grade will go to Los Angeles and visit UCLA, 5C's, as well as going to a museum of tolerance, art museums, etc. All 10th graders take the PSAT to get a feel for it, and then again all 11th graders do, of course. </p>
<p>Of course, this program works because it's a 400 student charter school; it would be harder to have in a 2000 student mega school.</p>
<p>Wow, if the previous 38 posts are any indication, I can only conclude that more than 97% of the GC's are going about this WRONG! (Or is this one of those weird circumstances when every approach is different and ALL are RIGHT?) </p>
<p>I've personally observed the work of several dozen GC's. Based on this (admittedly limited) sample I feel safe in saying that Guidance is best handled within the family.</p>