When do your GCs begin encouraging students to start searching?

Parents Forum
1

<p>I have been teaching for over 17 years but this is the first year I have had my own children involved in the college search. I am curious if the norm is for GCs to not begin talking about looking at schools and making lists of possibles until the end of Junior year. That's when they do it here. I have posted before about how we come from a somewhat impoverished rural community where the majority of the parents are not college graduates. And where you havve to start your search early because there aren't many great schools within a 5 hour radius Anyway, it seems to me that spring of Junior year is getting a late start. Case in point:</p>

<p>Today one of my Jr. students who plans to go to college shared with me that she is going to UC San Diego. This girl has a 2. something, has not taken the SAT yet but there is really no way that she will get in. My feeling though is that if she had received appropriate counseling to this effect her sophomore year there would have been time for her to set UCSD as a goal, she could have worked harder to get it within her reach and even if she fell short she still may have earned the grades to get her into a less impacted UC. What typically happens to our grads is that because they didn't know how to explore their options they limit themselves to one or two campuses that are relatively close by. These campuses are huge and impersonal and, coming from our small intimate community, many students don't last their first year. Am I wrong in thinking that college counseling in an area like mine should be happening much sooner?</p>

<p>I guess my point is that if students make lists, they can establish goals based on those lists and do the requisite work to try to attain those goals. By the end of Jr. year that ship has sailed and to mix my metaphors...the cows are already out of the barn.</p>

2

<p>D went to a private school in So Cal. Group meetings on the college search
process started the end of sophomore year. One on one meetings began
in the first half of Junior year.
And from the first day of freshman year kids would
be periodically harassed by teachers with
"you will NEVER get into a UC with THAT grade"</p>

3

<p>I think schools absolutely should say something freshman year; so you can plan for SAT II if you take Biology. The top third at my kids' school gets some college guidance freshman year; the bottom two thirds get nothing till January junior year.</p>

4

<p>I agree that many schools should start this process much earlier. My D's school is a fine public school, located in a Big 10 town, and there is much that we like about it. My biggest complaint has been the lack of assistance or even gentle proding from the GC's. Maybe they assume because many parents are connected to the university they know the routine. I disagree though as there are many students from families with no connection to the school. It's been several decades since most of us attended college, and things have changed!</p>

<p>Her school does publish the admission standards for the state schools in the course book, speaks with the entire group of incoming freshman about college, etc. when they choose their schedules, and holds a yearly college admissions night. (This year it was VERY poorly publicized, held in late October, too late for Srs. I've learned, It wasn't even on the school website until the day it occurred.) D's GC never met with her freshman year until I insisted she make an appointment with him sometime in March or April. He said, "Oh. You've got good grades. You should probably take the PSAT next year." Sophomore year, again, never met with her except when she made an appointment. Same thing this year. She did try to see him a couple of times this year, but he was not around. Another GC had to change her schedule for her. We really could use another "voice" encouraging her to keep up her efforts, leading her down the right track, etc. Sometimes when advice comes from another adult, it has more meaning than coming from Mom and Dad. </p>

<p>She is in the top 10% at her high school, so it's not like she's unlikely to pursue further education. </p>

<p>This poor GC situation has had one positive effect. It's lead me to discover CC!</p>

5

<p>I'm with you Muffy and rrah! The top kids here get some guidance early but the rest are sort of left with whatever they can pull together at the 11th hour. But, if it wasn't for the lack from our GC office I wouldn't have found CC either.</p>

<p>There is so much Magical thinking going on w/ adolescents. "I am going to be going to Stanford and studying medicine" never mind the fact that the kid has a 2.3. I know that they are told ad-nauseum that they need to "get good grades and get into a good school" but what they don't get is that there are kids with perfect grades who don't get in where they want. I honestly don't know that they would listen but I just felt so badly when this sweet girl, with a cruddy home-life and low gpa tells me she plans to go to UCSD. sigh, It shouldn't be the case that only kids with tuned in parents get to know about all of the wonderful options out there for post-secondary education.</p>

<p>In all fairness, all students have appointments with their counselor freshman year to map out their program. At that point the kids are given an idea of their schedule for the next three years. But there is no "here's a list of websites that can help you learn more about colleges and their requirements" talk. I think that is what's missing more than anything. </p>

<p>Kids hear "do well in school" They average above a "C" and are doing better than their parents did so they think it's good enough.</p>

6

<p>We are in a small rural school. Some of the kids just had their guidance interview at the end of November. We are seriously understaffed for guidance even though we are not the poorest district in the area. Our office hadn't heard of a number of little Ivies, and had never heard of Wesleyan University. Most of the kids go to the same 10 schools - St. Lawrence, for the better kids, one kid every few years to a school like Middlebury, lots go to state schools, lots go to a close by Vermont state school.
Really, they get little to no advice, and the advice they do get comes too late. There are good books in the office, but none of the kids use them. Big suburban schools usually have very good guidance departments, while rural and urban schools suffer in this area.</p>

7

<p>Our school district begins advising its students pre-ninth grade when the schedule their first hs courses. They give all students 9 sample hs academic programs ranging from vo-tech track to highly competetive college admissions track.</p>

<p>The district guidance office also advises academic track students to take PSAT exams soph year and pays for the exam. And it begins evening sessions with parents and students about the college admissions process starting the beginning of jr year. GC's also begin meeting with jr's to discuss college planning options and provides them and parents with a pass worded web site(COIN3) to begin their own research. They also begin giving them general guidance regarding a range of college choices available to them, things like community colleges, public universities, private colleges, LAC's(which many students may not have considered before) and highly selective college options. An jr year our son's gc was instrumental in assisting him in getting a $60,000 merit scholarship to the college he ended up attending.</p>

8

<p>My GC started to touch on the subject around end of 10th grade. In 11th he suggested we explore some websites like collegeboard etc. Take PSAT and all that. Winter-Spring was more of: what are you interested in, what type of school, where? He was very helpful to me each time I went in with questions. By April, through June, it was pretty much in full "let's talk about college" mode. September senior year had a lot of assemblies about the college search & application process, some parent meetings after school. I think my school's timing worked out just fine.
By the end of sophomore year you can explore careers & majors that interest you, Junior year is more of a "what do you want in college" search for schools that match your interests, and By summer before senior year, you're pretty much good to go (well I was at least! :) ) Then fall came and all there was to do was fill out apps, get letters & revise essays. All of my applications were done and in by Thanksgiving - couldn't have done it without my very helpful GC!</p>

9

<p>Good topic. S is a freshman at a competitive private school and within the first 3 weeks they had a college forum basically telling them that though they were only freshman their grades did go on their transcripts and count. Then I read in the school parents' newsletter that things really get going second semester JUNIOR year which seems VERY late to me because my friends have gone to look at colleges March of Junior year. Maybe the kids should make a possible list with their parents sophomore year second semester?</p>

10

<p>My kids schools have made it clear that college is the goal from seventh grade on! But the real college planning starts in Jan. of soph. year. The GC's will meet as a group with the students and parents to go over what are realistic expectations for college. They will have a senior tell the kids how important it is to work hard at getting good grades now. They encourage families to have a few goals for investigating what they want in a college for their child and to tour a few over the summer, just so the kids have an idea of what a large university feels like compared to a mid-sized school and a small college. They also lay out a timeline of what is ahead with tests, applications, etc.</p>

11

<p>Wow! My school takes the exact opposite approach many of you suggest.</p>

<p>I go to a very competitive private high school, and our college counselor served as dean of admissions of a very selective college for many years. The school has students do absolutely NOTHING about college until second semester junior year, other than take the PSATs. </p>

<p>I think that makes so much sense. If I'd compiled a list sophmore year, it'd look absolutely nothing like the one I started generating at the end of last year. Sophmore year, everything's so speculative. A lot of change, both academically and in what you'd want in a school, occurs in that year. Personally, my activities changed, my grades improved, I took the SATs. I think compiling the list earlier would have kind of put me in a box.</p>

<p>Honestly, to me, focusing on colleges as early as freshman year is sad. High School should be about a lot more than getting into college. 14 year olds should be able to make decisions about there activities without thinking how it'll look on their application. </p>

<p>One year of intensive college concentration was more than enough for me!</p>

12

<p>My S's school doesn't want them to make a list of specific schools yet, just begin to figure out types of schools, how far from home, etc. But wants them aware of how important grades, EC's, and test scores are, even as a sophmore.</p>

13

<p>Not sure what they told my sophomore daughter, but she has been worried about her GPA since she was a freshman. She is doing great, but is worried about numbers! I wish she would relax a bit more.</p>

<p>On the other hand, her brother, who was a senior last year, didn't care about GPA or SAT's at all, and was only vaguely interested in colleges when we dragged him around the summer of his junior year. It seems like he wasn't really interested in learning about colleges until he was accepted to the first one in October...... Then he started reading the college guides in earnest. Go figure.</p>

14

<p>Our high school doesn't start until spring of junior year--and that is way too late. This is a large high school where 98% of grads go to college. Virtually everybody takes the PSAT and either the ACT or SAT. But discussion of the college search starts when it is convenient for the GCs--after applications have gone out for the current seniors.</p>

<p>We started looking at colleges the summer after 9th grade--and it was none too soon. My son was in ECs that made it impossible to travel during the fall or winter--he had performances and competitions most weekends.</p>

<p>But this was his schedule for spring of junior year:
Spring break (we looked at colleges)
Last weekend of spring break was when he took the SATs.
Immediately after, his teachers started reviewing for AP exams. These reviews essentially covered a full year of work in 4-5 weeks, and the homework load was overwhelming.
The first 2 weeks of May were AP exams.
The last week of May was the end of the term.
Finals were the first week of June.
SAT IIs were the first weekend after finals.
And the end of school was followed by a pre college summer program open only to rising seniors.</p>

<p>It is beyond me where one is supposed to fit college search and visits into this time frame. But having worked with several nieces who started senior year without a list of colleges they wanted to apply to, I can tell you that students need a pretty good idea of where they want to apply by the time they start senior year.</p>

<p>The schools in our area insist that students have their completed college applications in the counseling office by November 15--some go as late as December 1st. Later than that and they won't send them out in time to meet the application deadlines. That gives students only 10 weeks from the start of school to write essays, complete applications, find teachers willing to write recommendations, etc. And many of these students have APs, ECs and or jobs that they are trying to keep up with at the same time they are working on applications.</p>

<p>In my opinion, the college search process at our school (and the college visit schedule of many of the schools our children are applying to) revolve around the convenience of the GCs and the college admissions offices, and have little to do with what might make sense for the high school students this process is supposed to serve.</p>

15

<p>This topic reminds me of what is wrong with education today...</p>

<p>The discussion here is about when to get the kids to focus on improving their metrics (Grades/SATs) so they are properly motivated to gain entrance to their "dream" school.</p>

<p>To me this translates as how far in front of the horse do we hitch the cart? And what carrot do we use to get this horse to push this cart.</p>

<p>It is a mistake we as parents (I am guilty too) of that has been passed along forever of focusing on the measurement of education rather than the enjoyment of learning.</p>

<p>We do the same things with getting our children to eat a healthful diet as well, by putting rewards (dessert) out there if they eat their broccoli.</p>

<p>Perhaps we need to focus on getting our children enjoy broccoli instead of coming up with better desserts to use as leverage.</p>

<p>Much of this has to do with children focusing on "what" they need to know (learning to the test) as opposed to "how" we came to this knowledge (building structure) and "why" this knoledge is useful (leveraging knowledge). Making knowledge relevant in childrens' lives is all about providing the why. Kids like relevancy. They truly are practical learners at heart. The "how" part - getting kids to structure their relevant knowledge is critical to their overall knowledge capacity. You can only cram so much experience into easily recalled memory. Structure allows relationships to link that most current memorized experience with past lessons, making the older knoledge more accessable and even more relevant.</p>

<p>However, once you focus on the measurement of knowledge (i.e. the grades and test scores), the child's focus goes to managing the things directly in front of them (next Friday's test) and not integrating what was in last week's lesson with what you are reading about today. And forget about taking the time to figure out why it is important because the grade is now the important thing because without that grade, I cannot go to Dream U, where all the "cool" people are.</p>

<p>Now this is not to say that you shouldn't discuss college possibilities with your child, but all children have a sense of where they stack up in their immediate school. What they lack is a sense of where their small community stacks up in the bigger world of schools. And while deflating their big world sounds cruel, I think putting the idea that you cannot control what the other children learn, but what you do with your time is probably the appropriate approach. And while their Dream U dream may be a bit deflated, they will all come to an understanding of where they are and what where they can get to with what level of work.</p>

<p>This is a touchy subject, much like teaching about the birds and bees, best done gradually over time as the child's interest dictates and in a non-threatening way.</p>

<p>Perhaps thinking of when the GC should have the college talk can be compared to what year in school to have sex-ed. If you leave it up to the school to do, there are likely to be misunderstandings and plenty of potential for failure. I think the kids that handle college admissions successfully and sex-ed successfully probably have learned the material gradually from trusted home sources first and don't experience the shock of having it delivered impersonally by a third party.</p>

<p>I'm sorry if I didn't answer the original question, but challenged its purpose, but I think it is a discussion that is much needed.</p>

16

<p>Interesting point goaliedad, but you miss an important part of my question. I explained that I live in a rural area where most of my students don't have as you put it "...a trusted home source..." to rely on for them for this kind of information. </p>

<p>I do agree that it is ultimately the parent's responsibility. But when no one on either front is addressing the need to build a list that is reasonable until after students' stats are set, I can't help but believe that some kids are not getting the full benefit of what the GC's office is supposed to be providing. </p>

<p>I don't think a definitive list is neccessary at the sophomore level, but by then you should know that a 2.7 is not going to cut it at a UC and you should start making other plans. Either work harder to show an upward trend or explore less selective campuses. If the planning is delayed until the end of Jr. year, where does that leave the kids whose parents lack either the will or the where with all to council their children on college applications? In our case it too often leaves them behind.</p>

17

<p>I think there are 2 separate issues at work.</p>

<p>I do think that in a California public school, the g.c.'s should be talking to students about requirements for the UCs & CSUs early on, both in terms of course planning & enrollment and in terms of GPA. There is no way a kid should be allowed to enroll in a set of 10th grade classes that will throw them irrovocably off track in terms of meeting UC requirements -- at least not without a discussion with the GC about their options. Obviously there are some kids who are not college bound in any case -- but if the kid has a 2.5 GPA they should not be under any illusions that they will be qualified for a UC.</p>

<p>As to a college search beyond that? I think anything before the middle of junior year is premature, as far as the g.c. is concerned - because recommendations and suggestions will need to be made in light of the GPA, PSAT score, and developed interests. Before that time, there simply isn't enough information, and I think it is too much to expect the GC to anticipate the needs of the students. In any case, I think it is safe for a GC in a public high school to assume that most of the students will be headed off to public university or community colleges.</p>

<p>As to my own kids -- with my son there was absolutely no discussion of college from the school until fall of his senior year. I think most college discussion came from the AP English teacher, not the g.c. -- I doubt the GC did more than offer help with filling out the UC & CSU apps. At home, my son started considering college options in August of his senior year. This did not bother me in the least, as I spent the first 17 years of his life assuming that if he did well, he would one day go to Berkeley... it simply never occurred to me that he might want to attend a private LAC. (* Note: this is my very excellent excuse for not having put much money away for their college educations -- I did kind of keep an eye on UC tuitions over the years, so I wasn't entirely remiss).</p>

<p>My d. went to a different high school, with a part time g.c. on staff specifically for college advising (my son's high school had 1 gc for 750 students who handled everything). The college counselor arranged meetings with students in the spring of junior year to discuss colleges, at least for my daughter; her school was an arts magnet so it would be important for many of the students to anticipate and prepare for auditions or portfolios -- so I do think that 11th grade advising was essential for that group. I do feel that the timing was fine for her -- my d. had very little interest in looking at specific colleges or narrowing down college choices until the summer prior to her senior year (partly because she had fallen in love and wasn't much interested in anything that didn't center around the boyfriend).</p>

18

<p>Our school is very large, and the gc's have over 500 kids assigned to them, so with D1, she and I took the lead on everything college-related. I think each gc schedules a meeting w/ their juniors midway through junior year-second semester. D1 nagged her younger sister to get her act together and start researching about 3 months ago....I know she'll be quizzing her when she's home for winter break. She was very much the "driver" for her college search, and as long as little sis listens to her, will be an excellent resource for her, especially when she <em>rolls eyes</em> at her mother!</p>

<p>D1's guidance counselor was OUTSTANDING--and although D is the one who took the lead, the counselor was really helpful in making sure all her recs, etc. were in place for schools and scholarships. D2 had the same counselor assigned, which was very comforting. Last week, we found out that the counselor has taken an indefinite leave of absence to deal with some personal issues (like, maybe not coming back), and all her students have been reassigned to the other counselors. Unfortunately, D2 drew the short straw and "got" the most inept, least knowledgeable and poorest communicator of the whole bunch. We're hoping for a miracle to either bring the old one back, or to have a new awesome counselor appear before it's critical for D2. </p>

<p>I do feel badly for those students whose parents aren't interested or aware of the opportunities and work involved in college searches. I jumped into it with both feet, doing lots of reading, researching, and of course, getting addicted to CC, which really helped out college search - round 1 at our house.</p>

19

<p>historymom,</p>

<p>Now that I've gotten off my soap box and have to deal with taking an administrative position, If I were in charge of public education, a student (and parents) would be provided a packet every year starting at the end of 8th grade (when they pick out their 9th grade classes) containing the following information:</p>

<p>1) The students current standing - what level of class (remedial, normal, honors, etc.) of class the student is taking and their current grade.</p>

<p>2) What level of class the student is qualified to take in the upcoming year (remedial, normal, honors, etc.) based upon the student's level of achievement (can s/he upgrade?). This would probably have to be a teacher advisement, but could be based upon the letter grade (B and above allow for upgrade next year with teacher rec, otherwise A is required).</p>

<p>3) What the current level of achievement forecasts out to in terms of expected outcomes at typical Colleges in the area that students matriculate into. For example if you are a 3.3 student taking a mix of honors and regular classes, historically speaking, these students have a 80% or better chance (safety school) of being accepted to CSUx, CSUy, etc., have a 50% or better chance (match) of acceptance to UCx or UCy, and have a 20% or less chance (reach) of acceptance to UCx, Stanford, Harvard, et. al.</p>

<p>The information should also indicate which schedule will minimally qualify a student for which set of schools, as well as the recommended qualifications for the each set of schools, reinforcing the idea that upgrading the level of class is always a better way of increasing the likelyhood of adequate preparation.</p>

<p>Now, I realize that many parents are sophisticated enough to process all of this information and many don't realize that the remedial classes that Jr. has been taking don't qualify him for Stanford regardless of his GPA when they get to the end of 8th grade and may still have their heads stuck in the sand. However, a reasonable projection of what the likely college outcomes are based upon a projected schedule and current achievement (grades) delivered on an annual basis (for planning next year), is probably the best that can be done from an administrative perspective.</p>

<p>I think many schools would be afraid to publish such reports as the bad news tends to bring out the parents with torches and pitchforks who think the school has been pulling the wool over their eyes about how good their education is.</p>

<p>How is this for a practical answer to your original question?</p>

20

<p>goaliedad - that would be ideal if schools would do it! My kids' hs pretty much only offers college prep classes since everyone goes to college, (although a lot to CCs), which is good, but I know a lot of kids are completely oblivious to the implications of dropping foreign language after a year or choosing not to take a science senior year. In their school, if you aren't on an honors track in a subject by the end of freshman year, the possibility of ever being on the honors track is greatly diminished.</p>