<p>Jumped in this late, but ML. my Dad was a very, very successful chemist, (have the framed pattons to prove it). He graduated from Fairleigh Dickinson (commonly referred to as Fairly ridiculous) when I was 6 (night school), the degree will get you in the door only if your grades are good enough.<br>
I know you have been on the opposite side of the fence with the parents, but here is someone who is your age and yet you can’t compliment them on the fact that they did it.</p>
<p>KK, I am in college actually. I got to Bard.</p>
<p>Bulletandpima, I don’t really understand what your saying in that last paragraph. However, I do think it is great that your dad is a successful chemist despite obstacles. He obviously worked very hard, and got what he deserved.</p>
<p>All I am saying is that I think there is a huge difference in the education at a top school and a 2nd tier school. That’s why they’re prestegious and that why they’re competitive. They have a higher quality of education than that of at the 2nd and 3rd tier schools. Yes, you can be successful even without going to a top school. However, if you aspire for greatness, you should do all you can to reach it.</p>
<p>I really like something Opie said, that there’s a lot of karma involved in where we end up in life. I am providing my kids with the desired education at LAC’s although we are getting reasonable financial aid. I am very happy for them.</p>
<p>I had parents who wouldn’t do the same for me though I would have been part of Yale’s first class to accept women. Instead, I paid for myself to go through a not very noble state u. Grad school, too.</p>
<p>There I met a mentor who was dear to me and shaped my life. </p>
<p>I don’t know who I would have met elsewhere.</p>
<p>I have no bragging rights; I don’t have an elite job as a prof, though my dissertation won a prestigious award because my PhD does not have the right pedigree, but I do feel I am where I am meant to be.</p>
<p>My kids are having wonderful experiences, but each has his/her own challenges.</p>
<p>(And neither of them can see the Beatles live, go to Woodstock or meet John Lennon the way I did.)</p>
<p>I would downsize, take extra work (I am), and forego many things (I am) to provide my kids with the education they are getting. I am happy too. I do think it is sad when parents have the means and don’t provide, but as Chedva said, I don’t have the right to judge without all the facts, and probably not then either.</p>
<p>FWIW: With no outside help I earned a PhD debt free. If I’d hustled a little more, I probably would have been able to get a more elite job too.</p>
<p>I apologize, somewhere in the 25 or so pages of this thread I didn’t read I confused you with the original poster or something. I thought your parents were making you go to (and pay for) Bard…and if you went to a lesser university you’d be kicked out.
Also I wouldn’t be so quick to say that so called “top schools” have a higher quality of education. I believe that if I went straight to UM-Ann Arbor (2nd ranked public in the US) I wouldn’t be looking at a summer internship at Fermi, a professorial research assistantship, and the one-on-one attention I will get from my professors as a result of smaller class size at Flint. I’m not a unique case; for many students huge class sizes and classes taught by grad students instead of professors isn’t offering nearly as good of an education as that student could get at a smaller, lower ranked institution. If I’m law at Harvard, I may be learning from a more accomplished, higher caliber professor than at a smaller university…but that doesn’t necessarily mean I’m getting a better education.</p>
<p>ML, so let me get this right you are at Bard and want to transfer out?</p>
<p>To clarify my last paragraph. KK is your peer (your side of the fence) why is it that you can’t admit that it can be done. I am a parent (other side) who you have yet to acknowledge we might actually get where you are coming from (own life exp)</p>
<p>I think you are doing a great job at managing your life, but we all need to listen to each other to learn. Will you have debt? Probably. Are there others here who have graduated with debt? Definetly. If you take the time and here the suggestions like KK said,you might find a free ride somewhere you want</p>
<p>Yes, I’m at Bard now and want to transfer out. Alot of it social and academic reasons. I’m finally putting efforts into school and now it’s still too easy. I want to be challenged to the point where I need to work for a B; here I simply need to study extra if I want an A (obviously one simple mistake by accident can foil an A, but that’s not a matter of studying or understanding). I’ve always been the brilliant, yet lazy, underacheiver and I decided to change that half way though junior year, and now I want to be challenged so I don’t fall back into old habits. On top of that, I was told I could get more money for good grades by the financial aid office, and turns out even though I have about a 3.75 GPA, I already have the max Bard Scholarship and would need to get the Distinguished Scientist Scholarship, which my advisor said would be possible but only if I get about a 3.8 this semester and get a 4.0 at midterms next semester. I’m looking at challenging schools that give out lots of aid so that I can go to a more affordable school where I will be challenged. My EFC was 19K and my parents have said they may possibly give me $5K a year, but would not if I had gone to UMass, which would have cost something like $2K cheaper if my parents give me the money they had originally agreed to do.</p>
<p>I think KK is doing great, however I don’t have the options he has. It can be done, yes, but one example doesn’t mean that everyone can do it. Yes, at Bard I too am doing professional research in the Chemistry department. I have also been in contact with chemists in high places around the United States for advise about my situation. I’ve thought about transfering to a cheaper school and then transfering back, but my parents aren’t letting that be an option. I’d have to move out, and would lose the possiblity of getting $5K a year, so there are problems.</p>
<p>I comend anyone who can do what your doing, KK. I’m trying to do that also, it just so happens the state of MA didn’t help me much.</p>
<p>
I noticed just the opposite. I don’t know anything about chemistry, but I did practice law for about 20 years and had the opportunity to hire many law students along the way – and I learned very early on that those who were attending the local night school were far more knowledgeable and capable than the ones attending the prestige schools. They were more ready to assume responsibility at the outset, more able to work independently, and far more likely to produce the level of research that I was looking for.</p>
<p>I think the prestige law schools are taught by academicians who do a very good job of preparing their students to be law professors…but that is very different than the practice of law in the real world. </p>
<p>Again, I don’t know about chemistry, but I’ll bet that there is a difference between doing research in an academic context and working for a company like Dow Corning (as kkei08 does) where the focus is more on practical results than the exploration of esoteric ideas.</p>
<p>Calmom, thats an interesting finding. I think they should do some extensive research on this…not like the the one they just published about the Silicon Valley but one about the job market as a whole.</p>
<p>I agree their is a difference, my research figured out that I would rather do practical stuff. He gave me a new job, synthesizing possibly cancer-killing agents based on some research from last year. Turns out last year they synthesized a compound that killed about 60% of cancer cells and had limited neurotoxcity; I’m now working on making a compound that would be theoretically more efficent and less neurotoxic. It’s actually pretty cool stuff, and kind of related to the kind of chemistry I want to go into(psychopharmacology).</p>
<p>
If it is so easy to get an A at Bard – if you are so under-challenged – what’s stopping you from getting the scholarship that requires a 3.8? </p>
<p>The only way you could have a 3.75 GPA is if you are pulling a B in at least 1 out of 4 classes – and if all you need for the better scholarship is to pull that one grade up to an A that you can easily get through extra studying … then what’s the problem? </p>
<p>I’m sorry, but you sound to me like the kind of person who is always making excuses for your own shortcomings. I can see why your parents are frustrated and reluctant to invest in your education – you’ve got one excuse after another and you are already looking to transfer before you’ve even finished your first semester. “brilliant, yet lazy” is simply a b.s. excuse – if you wanted more challenge, you would simply opt to enroll in more challenging courses next semester. If that is what you have been telling your parents, then I can see why they would take a hard line on the money. It seems to me that the most logical short-term goal is to do the work required for the higher scholarship.</p>
<p>Three points I need to make:</p>
<p>First, I agree that the undergraduate school may not make or break a career. But I also know that, after more than 20 years in business, employers are still impressed by my undergraduate school. So I will not say that it’s irrelevant. (They don’t give a damn about my GPA; I don’t even remember what it was!)</p>
<p>Second, while not all experiences are the same, it is often the student who makes the education, even with graduate degrees. I know a woman who went to law school at night who is now a partner and department head at a national law firm. I also know a man who graduated from Harvard Law who’s upset that his degree didn’t “take him anywhere”. It didn’t because he believed that the world owed him. “What do you mean, I have to write pleadings? I went to Harvard!”</p>
<p>Third,
None of the kids on this thread (including but not limited to MLEVINE) have given any indication that their parents fall into this category. All they’re saying is “they won’t and I can’t.” There are very few parents who, in fact, do fit into this category.</p>
<p>I should have a B+ in Chem and an A- in Psych. I only have an A- in Psych because I did the first paper while I had a concussion from rugby and got a C- on it. I got a 97 on the last test, and have been in atleast the top 75% of every test (an estimate, but the average test grades for our class have been a 79 and 77 so far), and have only got one question wrong on a quiz all year. I did the extra credit she offered so that I can get an A in her class aslong as I get a 96 on the next test. I’ve studied all the chapters every single night.</p>
<p>I have a B+ because I blew the first test because I thought it would be easier than it was. I should be able to get an A on this next one. I’ve got an A on every lab, and we only have labs and three tests. I tutor multiple people in this subject and some how got the reputation of “the kids who always knows what going on”. I doubt even if I get an A on the test I’ll get an A for the semester. We have a 3 test system, so one test grade doesn’t help as much as it would in the midterm/final sytem.</p>
<p>My parents are reluctant to fund my education because my dad never graduated (and defaulted on student loans) and my mom feels that a new car was more important than my tuition (and doesn’t realise the difference between her 30K in loans from 1995 when she had another source of income to pay for them and my 100K in loans when I will have no income).</p>
<p>My parent’s new arguement is that I’ll be making $100K when I get out of college so I can afford it. Nice.</p>
<p>MLEVINE - more excuses - the opportunity is there - right in front of you - yet you refuse to grab the brass ring - you just want out - ‘‘brilliant, yet lazy’’ says it all</p>
<p>CALMOM - great post - could not have said it better myself :)</p>
<p>I stayed out of this discussion as long as I could, but…</p>
<p>I worked for 23 years as a synthetic organic chemist for a major pharma company. For most of this years I helped recruit MS/BS chemists. When it came time to invite applicants for an interview, NO ONE CARED WHERE YOU WENT TO SCHOOL.</p>
<p>No.
One.
Cared.</p>
<p>What did matter? How much (and what kind) of research you did as an undergrad and how glowing your recommendations were. Once the actual interviewing began, we always focused on interpersonal skills and the ability to “think on your feet.”</p>
<p>That’s IT. And some of the best candidates we ever recruited came from such places as Michigan Tech and the University of Tennessee.</p>
<p>I really don’t see how an A- and B+ says I’m not trying at all. I had a B- in Psych because of that one paper and got it up to an A-/A in about 6 weeks…that’s not an excuse, that’s going out and fixing the problem.</p>
<p>I’m not saying the school I go to matters to the people who will be looking at my job application. I am saying it matters to my personal education in the field of chemistry. I want to learn as much about chemistry as I can and get the most research opportunities I can. That’s why I want to go to a good school, not because of the name. Believe me, I would have went to Clark University over Bard if I cared about name (I want to do psychopharmacology, Clark is very well known for all kinds of psych). </p>
<p>I never said I wanted to go to a school for prestiege. I mearly want to go to a school that will give me the best education possible.</p>
<p>3 quick points: </p>
<p>1st: My son/daughter high school had a mega genius student. Offered many scholarships all over the country. All the Ivy’s, west coast ivy’s, etc… She wanted state university. Family, small class size, etc… many reasons. She too found herself not as challenged because of her abilities. She realized that it would probably be the same at most any school. I.e. Biology 101 is pretty much the same in any school. There’s not going to be some massive “Challenge” difference at Harvard compared to state U. Her solution by the end of 1st semester. Talk to counselors; show her past and current capabilities; Got permission to take a “Mega-Load”. (18-21 credits a semester). Allowed to take classes without pre-requisites; Finished her B.S. in 2 years and 1 additional semester in Chemical-Engineering. Starts her master’s degree after Christmas. You want to be challenged? There you go.</p>
<ol>
<li><p>A perfect comment was made earlier in this thread about finding the the school that is the right fit. That is the key. If you want to graduate and be a research scientist or engineer, then most definitely going to Caltec, MIT, New Jersey tech, and some others are what you probably want to do. In this case, the U of Wherever is sub par. This however falls under the category I mentioned earlier of the “Wall Street” careers. The majority of students aren’t going to be looking for those careers. For the average EE degree, Business degree, Arch, chem, and a host of other degrees that the majority of students will go for and the careers that follow, there is no major advantage to Harvard, Yale, TT, or others compared to the University of Wherever. Definitely not worth the 10 years of debt trying to pay off the loans to go to that school.</p></li>
<li><p>The “Experience” at Harvard, Princeton, Stanford, Purdue, or any of the high end dream schools is no better than any other school. They will be different, but that doesn’t mean better. Is the experience of growing up on a farm better than an inner city? Depends on your point of view. Definitely different. I’ve lived/worked/visited 15 countries so far. They’ve all had different experiences. Was living in Spain a better experience than living in Amsterdam? Or was Belize better than Ecuador? Or were any of them better than the experiences I’ve gotten traveling within the United States? No, all just different. The only part of the college experience that is truly unique and I highly encourage, is the part of moving away to college. I don’t suggest living at home and commuting unless you are an older student; 25yr+ or for financial reasons. Living in the dorm, no parental supervision, hanging with friends, etc… is all part of the growing up experience. This is indeed required. Other than that, there are no real differences. </p></li>
</ol>
<p>I’ve got 3 degrees from 3 different schools. The quality of the education was good at all 3. I’ve never found any clear cut difference in Tier 1 school graduate and a tier 3. They don’t have better work ethics. I will say that those that I’ve met who have gone to high tech schools like MIT, Caltech, NJIT, and probably the military service academies are a different caliber. But again, these are the people going into the “Wall Street” type jobs. They aren’t mainstream. So, if your goal is the high end market in business, finance, technology, etc… then the name of the school on the diploma may mean a bit more. For the normal student, it doesn’t. Which brings us back to the original topic. If you or your parent can, or are willing to pay for college, don’t go broke or mortgaging the parent’s house to do it. You can go to state college for your B.S/B.A. Save the money and get invested in your graduate school. If graduate school isn’t in your future, then you can go out and get a great job without paying off loans for the next 10 years. And your college experience will have been so much better because you weren’t working 2 jobs plus going to school to pay for Harvard, and you weren’t stressing your parents out and wasting all their resources that they’ve worked so hard for.</p>
<p>Fair enough, MLevine. However, if you’re really looking to learn a lot about chemistry and maximize your research opportunities, you might just consider some of those “lower-tier” schools after all. I just checked the American Chemical Society web site, and the Univeristy of Massachusetts-Amherst does have an ACS-certified major (considered crucial for graduate school and important to some employers), whereas Bard does not… Actually, it’s amazing just how many Tier II and Tier III schools have ACS-certified chemistry departments.</p>
<p>Yes, I do realise that Bard is not ACS certified (another reason why I want to transfer). I chose Bard because I thought the style of the school would be more facilitative for me, and because I originally wanted to do Psychology and Philosophy when I applied to schools, not Chemistry (I didn’t get to take Chem untill my senior year), and most of the school I applied to were NOT strong in Chemistry. Howerver, because I’m double majoring (Chem/Psych) I chose to go to Bard because they have a strong Psych department. The schools I hope to transfer to, provided I get enough money, are both ACS-certified (Vassar and Wesleyan). I’d really like to go to Wesleyan because not only can I get a BA in Chemistry, but I can get an MS in Neuroscience by just going for a 5th year (which is free). I think that Welseyan would actually save me money and allow me to get multiple graduate degrees in the field I want to go into (research/experiemental psychopharmacology).</p>
<p>If your primary interest is learning the material, you might have a look at the MIT OpenCourseWare series. There are something like 1800 classes available for free, with content ranging from just the class notes to full videos of every class period for the entire semester. You will not get credit from MIT for accessing them, but you will be able to get the content as it is presented at school that most people would agree is in the top tier. Not a bad deal if you are stuck in a class that you think is not presenting the material at an advanced enough level. Check it out at [Free</a> Online Course Materials | Courses | MIT OpenCourseWare](<a href=“http://ocw.mit.edu/OcwWeb/web/courses/courses/index.htm]Free”>http://ocw.mit.edu/OcwWeb/web/courses/courses/index.htm)</p>
<p>I didn’t know MIT did that; that’s actually awesome. Thanks for pointing me that way. I know Harvard just started that also, I hope that will be helpful.</p>
<p>I haven’t read every post on this thread so maybe this has been mentioned and maybe not. I keep seeing people mention that $50,000 price tag of a private school. I just checked on the UCLA site and the price tag with on-campus housing is just a wee bit under $24,000. I wish people would talk about the difference in price between private and public and not just the price-tag of private. It’s not a $50,000 difference a year – it’s about a $25,000 difference – at least for UCs-- and I’m not saying that’s nothing but it’s not $50,000 versus free either. In addition, I haven’t seen (and maybe it’s there) anyone really talk about the decisions leading up to the college decision in terms of money. In my area, plenty of people feel they have to opt out of the public school system and they pay for private school every year what to me seems almost the price of an Ivy League education. In other words, if a private high school education is close to $30,000 a year without board, etc. it’s not that much of a difference. There are some people who work the public school system and search out the programs that will meet their kids needs and put their kids on buses or drive long distances and make sacrifices so that there will be money for a private school college education later if there is reason to consider one. Those people are opting to use education funds later. One more thing to consider is that in comparing costs between private and public colleges, the length of time spent should be factored in. If it takes longer than four years in a public setting due to impacted programs, that cost should be factored in to the comparison.</p>