When parents refuse to pay anything

Parent Cafe
421

<p>Christcorp – Yours is a legitimate opinion. Not one I subscribe to, but legitimate nonetheless. My opinion, and that’s all it is, is somewhat different. I feel that if two people take the step of bringing a child into this world they do owe them a few basic things, beginning with unconditional love. To that I would add a safe, secure and nurturing home and an education. Some people view the age when a parent’s financial obligations to a child end at 18. Others, I’d put myself in that camp, feel the obligation extends through the age of majority, or that point when they can legally make all choices, including the bad ones (i.e. alcohol, smoking). The day when the average child could walk out of high school at age 18, fully capable of making their way in the world has long passed. If I have to give up the idea of that vacation home in South Carolina or the 99" Hi-Def TV in order to provide my kids with the education they need to succeed in life that’s the choice I’ll make. After all, if I didn’t want kids I could have had that vasectomy at age 25 instead of age 40. </p>

<p>That said, I agree that the “Dream School” and “good college education” are not the same thing, and my caveat is always “what we can afford.”</p>

422

<p>BULLET - I will admit that for Mass students - at least Mitt did provide some incentive and relief for some lucky students - especially where our cost of living in general is very high - but not that many take advantage of it in reality - basically because it is many of those students who might receive it - who look elsewhere.</p>

<p>The scholarships are based on…
Massachusetts public high school students automatically qualify for the Adams Scholarship when they</p>

<p>score in the Advanced category in either the Mathematics or the English language arts section of the grade 10 MCAS test;
score in the Proficient or Advanced category on the second subject (Mathematics or English language arts); and
have a combined MCAS score on these assessments that ranks in the top 25% in their school district. </p>

<p>And can be used at any of the state sponsered schools - community colleges - state colleges - state universities.</p>

423

<p>I’m with you Hudson. IMO, in the “Undergraduate” degree area; there is not a major difference between IVY league and the University of Wherever. Most professions that require a B.S./B.A. don’t really care. I’ve also taught college at the local Comm College, and that is a different level intended more for Vocational type jobs and educational requirements. A Graduate degree on the other hand is a different story. Matter of fact, when the time comes to look for a job and they see you have a Master’s, they don’t even ask what school the B.S. was in. The professional type jobs that require a graduate degree does indeed matter. But if you are going to eventually go to graduate school, then your undergraduate degree matters even less where you got it.</p>

424

<p>Two years ago, when my daughter got accepted into her dream school, my ex and I started to battle for the first time since divorcing twelve yrs before.</p>

<p>Seems that his new wife didn’t want them to have to pay anything. It interfered with their plans for home renovations and the purchase of a luxury vehicle. Oh and their child’s top notch day care was already costing them a mint.</p>

<p>What we wanted him to pay amounted to $ 6000.00 a yr, and yet he fought it.
Thanks to a generous contribution from my mother, he had to pay a fraction of what was not covered by my husband and I and a few minor scholarships.</p>

<p>Now, daughter two is heading to college and I am hoping the battles will not start up again.</p>

<p>They caused some serious damage to his relationships with his kids.</p>

425

<p>I don’t agree that if you are going to eventually going to grad school your undergraduate doesn’t matter.</p>

<p>We’re completely corrupting the intent of the educational system. People go to school to LEARN, not to get a degree. I don’t think it can be said that someone at an average state university is going to learn more than somone at a top 10 school; each school is geared to teach a different level of student. </p>

<p>If you want to go to graduate school and truely be good in your frield, you want to learn as much as you can during undergraduate and absorb as much as possible. </p>

<p>Yes, you can be successful despite what school you do to. However, if you truly want to be a great (BLANK), you need to learn as much as possible about (BLANK). That can be done best as a top school. </p>

<p>I’ll tell you right now, when I compared the stuff I’m doing in my Chemistry class to the stuff my friend at UMass Amherst is doing, I was shocked. Not only have a learned much, much more, but we were learning the real basis of chemistry, unlike him who was learning formulas and reactions and didn’t know how they worked.</p>

<p>I’d say that if money permits, the best school is always better if you want to be the best.</p>

426

<p>BULLET - LOL - bearly an afternoon snack :D</p>

427

<p>Mel,</p>

<p>“Yes, you can be successful despite what school you do to. However, if you truly want to be a great (BLANK), you need to learn as much as possible about (BLANK). That can be done best as a top school.” </p>

<p>It honestly can be done anywhere, depends on the student. An exceptional school isn’t going to dramatically improve an average or below average student. It really does depend on the student. Yes, the professor matters, but not all professors at name schools are great and all professors at other places bad… </p>

<p>the percentages kinda work differently as professors also work where they want to, not every professor aspires to teach at an Ivy. Some like fly fishing, hiking, the pacific ocean, wine making.. professors choose where they teach for other reasons besides the school. When you have a family and are into your career you might understand. </p>

<p>“I’ll tell you right now, when I compared the stuff I’m doing in my Chemistry class to the stuff my friend at UMass Amherst is doing, I was shocked. Not only have a learned much, much more, but we were learning the real basis of chemistry, unlike him who was learning formulas and reactions and didn’t know how they worked.”</p>

<p>Having two bio/chem majors for kids, the class structure of a particular professor can be quite different. If your professor decides to move to california, does your school still rock? Did the school make the professor or did the professor make the school? </p>

<p>I guess one might look at the % of national exams (like mcat) to compare what’s being taught. Although that can deceive too. The year my son took his mcat, his school had a 67% high (above 30) of students taking exam. yup 3 kids. :wink: However, his chem and bio and overall education at his small lac (known more for it’s football team), helped him to a 33 on the mcat, which was I believe in the top 15% that year… Ya just never know where your success is going to come from. He is an example of a place where they weren’t known for their sciences, but the professors there made dam sure he was prepared as he was a student up to the task… there’s alot of karma involved in things… He had the benefit of top notch professors because they wanted to live in a community where they could raise their kids… </p>

<p>I guess my point is you can’t really make generalizations as absolutes because there are simply too many variables and yes, the stars have to aline sometimes…</p>

428

<p>Christcorp – while it is very true that you can get a good undergraduate education everywhere if you seek it out, and have a bright future, (especially if you go to grad school) there is still a drastic difference in the college EXPERIENCE between say Yale and Oregon State, and in my opinion a far superior one at the former.</p>

<p>I’ve attended two top 50 schools, and even the difference from #50 (though when I attended it was #43) and #14 is astounding in the kind of people you are surrounded with – the brilliance, the motivation, the passion. A lot of learning takes place outside the classroom. I’m not trying to play the ranking card whatsoever, I’m trying to say that I went to two VERY good schools, both of which would have offered me a top notch education, but the experience at these schools is vastly different. (This is why I believe so strongly in the notion of fit – I chose #14 over a #5 uni and a #3 LAC)</p>

<p>You will get a completely different EXPERIENCE at a small private than a large state, or even large private. You will get a completely different EXPERIENCE at a highly selective school vs. a not-so-selective one. And most of these highly selective schools (if not all) offer only need based aid…</p>

<p>This point is frequently overlooked. I want my kids to have the best education AND college experience they can get, and I think that can come best from the school that is the best fit for them. For many people, a large state school is the right fit. But for many, many others, it’s not, and I think it’s wrong to deprive your kids of that great experience, that great fit, if you legitimately have the means. I’d take a out a second mortgage to send my kids to (insert school here) if I had to.</p>

429

<p>And one more thing. There is a downside to having your parents pay for part or all of your education, and that’s that they can “power of the purse” you all the time. </p>

<p>I had surgery on a broken nose (yay rugby) at the end of last spring semester was deciding between taking an incomplete or just dropping a class (a class i hated, fwiw). They basically told me if I didn’t stick with the class I wasn’t going back to school on their dime. I ended up getting Lyme Disease and dropping it anyways…but that’s another story :slight_smile: </p>

<p>I guess they have a right to do that, or rather, the choice to do that. But I still think it’s wrong. It sucks to be manipulated or pressured in that way because when it comes down to it, the fact that they give you money gives them immense power over you.</p>

430

<p>

I feel that the greatest gift I could provide my kids with was the ability of being fully capable of supporting themselves, on their own, at age 18 if it came to that. </p>

<p>My daughter had a good friend in high school whose mother was deceased, and whose father had remarried and moved to another city. He lived with his older sister, who was working her way through the local CSU (4 year, commuter college); and living off the social security check which would stop coming when he reached 18. He and his sister had part-time jobs working at a local restaurant. He had contact with his father, but no financial support. </p>

<p>My d. was 16 and a sophomore when the friend turned 18. She took time off to help him out – she told me that he didn’t have a bank account or know how to set one up; he didn’t have a driver’s license or a state ID card from the DMV (issued to non-drivers); of course he had no clue how to register to vote. My d. was driving him around to the DMV and the bank to help guide him through each step – things she knew simply because she had done them at a much younger age. I felt kind of sorry for the friend for feeling so overwhelmed, but proud of my daughter for already having the knowledge to guide him through the process. </p>

<p>I don’t think its impossible for 18 year olds to make their way on their own in this world – thousands are doing it and have no other choice. Obviously they are not living the privileged lives that we hope for our own children – many have joined the military, others are working full time, and some are managing to juggle part time jobs while attending community colleges. </p>

<p>If I was rich, I suppose I could have a different viewpoint – but I’m a single parent earning a modest income. If I became seriously ill or disabled this house of cards on which I structure ongoing financial support for my daughter would all come tumbling down. </p>

<p>Did I support my kids beyond high school? yes. Do I think it is something they are entitled to or that I owe them – no. It is something I chose to do because I happened to have the means to do it at the time. But it felt very good this summer when I saw my 19-year old daughter move into her own apartment, on her own dime, even if was only a summer sublet. I knew then that she was launch-ready, even if I do intend to finance her remaining years of school.</p>

431

<p>Well, I’ve done a lot of hiring and firing of people. I’ve also worked in a lot of jobs. Believe what you want, but in the vast majority of jobs, WHERE you got your B.S/B.A from doesn’t really matter. Sorry, but that is the real world. I’m not saying you can’t get a BETTER education at school “A” over school “B”. Just that most employers don’t care. If you have a degree in a particular field, and hopefully can market yourself, you can get a job. Once you start getting actual work experience and are trying to move up the ladder or go to another company, where you went to school matters even less. The longer you’ve worked, the less the college education means. It may be a requirement, but then your actual experience means more.</p>

<p>Graduate school means a lot more. A Law degree from Harvard will open many more doors than a law degree from U of Wherever. But then again, it depends on where you are looking for a job. </p>

<p>I will not argue what experience, actual education, etc… that different tier schools provide. I will only argue real world facts. Real world means graduating and getting a job. Barring certain careers, a Bachelor’s in Business, LA, etc.. from Harvard won’t mean much more to the employer than the U of Wherever. Mind you, there are exceptions. If you plan on graduating and going to Manhattan and getting a financial job on Wall Street, then a prestigious school majoring in business is definitely better. But the majority of students aren’t going to the wall streets of their career field. So, believe what you want. That’s cool. I’m telling you from experience that unless you are going to the Hollywood of your chosen profession, then the top notch Ivy league or mega school is of little advantage. And can actually be a hindrance. i.e. You might need a higher paying job to pay for that harvard education. Oh well, you’ll find out. And as I said, once your foot is in the door, you are working, and have experience, that college degree will mean even less. Other than the fact that you HAVE to have it.</p>

432

<p>Claysoul, the “experience” of traveling through Europe and staying at first-class hotels is very different than going the backpack-and-hostel route, but that doesn’t mean that if my kid wants to go to Europe I’ve got to spring the money on hotels. I’d argue that one gets more from staying at the hostels in any event – but that’s not the point. I don’t think my son’s current CSU experience is the same as my d’s urban Ivy exposure – but there are pros & cons of both. I know that in the end my son created his own experience, and I’d have to say that at this point in time, his current choice of school has probably had more of a positive impact on his life than my daughter’s choice. By that I mean, I think my son has enjoyed the fruits of some wonderful learning opportunities that I do not think he would have gotten anywhere else; whereas though my d. is very happy and doing well, I think that she could be at the same point if she had attended just about any other college on her list. Partly this is happenstance – she has maintained friendships and arranged internships outside of her school, whereas my son has taken advantage of of opportunities offered via his school. </p>

<p>What my kids do have is the subjective experience of feeling that they are the masters of their own fate – I’m sure my daughter understands that she could function easily as well with or without my money, even though my money currently enable her to attend a more expensive school than the one her brother will graduate from. But neither kid has to chafe as an adult under the “power of the purse” that you noted – there is a very clear tradeoff. I know my son was offered some money by his grandfather last year and turned it down, even though he was feeling tight for funds --when I asked him why he turned down the money, my son said that it made him feel good to know that he was supporting himself and earning more than he was spending, even if it meant that finances were limited – he simply didn’t wanted the satisfaction of doing it all his own. That sense of personal satisfaction is another kind of “experience” that is extremely valuable, especially for a young person – I think my son has gained a level of confidence and maturity that is well beyond what I see in young adults who are still relying on a check from home to get by. </p>

<p>So don’t be so sure that parents who hold back are denying their kids the benefit of the full “experience” – maybe they are just providing a different experience that in its own way, may be far more valuable.</p>

433

<p>Christcorp,</p>

<p>Have you generally noticed that the workers from “better” schools happen to also be better workers and more knowledgable in their fields? Maybe you don’t consider what school they went to, but the school they went to obviously has a huge effect on them. I would think that those at better schools may, for the most part, fit that description. Maybe I’m wrong, though.</p>

434

<p>Chriscorp, I agree with your post. I also think that once you are either in a tier II or tier III school, it matters even less. Employers are not going to care whether the average SAT for admission to a school was an 1100 or a 1200, or a 1300. They won’t care if your classes had 300 students in them with a TA, or whether the average class size had 15 students. They won’t care if the professors will full time professors, or adjunct professors. They won’t care if the pricetag of that school was 45k/year, or if it was 18k/year. If you look at a field like education, the public school district will give you the same pay if you went to 4th tier state U., or some 1st tier 45k pivate U. They will pay extra for the master’s degree, and for work experience related to teaching.</p>

435

<p>Calysoul, I couldn’t agree with you more. Its the college experience. We don’t look at it like some votech school education. Those four years you can’t ever get back. Its not all about job hunting, but I must say that at the bank I worked at, the kids from the top schools got into credit training because they’d already proved that they were bright and capable. The others got ass’t positions, credit investigation, back room, operations, etc. with alot less prestige and pay.</p>

436

<p>Chriscorp, I agreed with you about your future prospects / education point, so I don’t know if you are trying to debate with me there. But I really do think the experience DOES matter. I’m an admitted romantic and idealist, and I think having an awesome college experience is irreplacable. Forget the “real world” for a second, and think about all the wonders a great college experience can bring to someone’s life. College is not just about cause and effect. It is about learning and growing, and I think that happens most at the school that’s the best fit for you. </p>

<p>Calmom - I do not in any way liken first class hotels to a great college experience to staying first class hotels. I think the former is something that is of great value, the latter frivolous luxury. </p>

<p>You can create your own experience, but it will never be the same as one that already exists. I know this from experience. </p>

<p>And I love hostels, for the record :slight_smile: </p>

<p>I’ll say it again, but I am reffering to people who can unequivically afford a 45k+ school. Not people making a modest income. Not people who get screwed over by the school / fafsa, and not people whose children think they are rich but in reality struggle. </p>

<p>I also am not talking about entitlement or obligation. No parent is obligated to feed their kid anything but ramen noodles or pay them decent attention, but it’s a darn shame if they can and don’t.</p>

437

<p>My parents make a decent, middle class wage. My EFC is pretty high (around 12k), yet my parents have pledged $10,000 for my -total- college education. $2,500 a year doesn’t go very far, especially when I’m planning on the University of Michigan, with around a $22,000/year cost.</p>

<p>How am I managing? I’ve spent literally hundreds of hours researching, calling people, getting to know college faculty members. I’ve worked very close with the professors at the UofM Flint campus and was offered a position on a physics professor’s research team as a freshman, as well as a paid internship at Fermi Lab in Illinois in '08. My stats aren’t extraordinary (3.85GPA, 33ACT), but getting out there and showing faculty that you have the resourcefulness to make the best out of your situation and care deeply about your education really speaks volumes to influential faculty members. I was recently offered a full ride for (I believe) all the questions I’ve asked and the work I’ve put in to make sure the people awarding the scholarships knew me by name. Two years at the Flint campus and I’ll be transferring to Ann Arbor and probably paying most of the 22k price tag, but I feel the opportunities I have at Flint are worth more than what I’d get as one of the thousands of freshman at the Ann Arbor campus. College is what you make of it…where you go gives you more clear cut opportunities but I believe you can get a good education and great opportunities wherever you go. I’m not sure you, or especially your mother for that matter, realize that. </p>

<p>Research. I did most of it on my own, and I feel you’re neglecting to appreciate the nearly 30 pages of suggestions on this thread. I don’t understand what you’re expecting to hear…that there’s some kind of organization that gives full rides to Bard when you have well-off yet stubborn parents? </p>

<p>Also, your friend at UMass Amherst was learning about reactions and formulas and didn’t know how they worked, while you’re learning the “real basis of chemistry”. Unless I’m mistaken, reactions and formulas are pretty much the “real basis of chemistry”.</p>

438

<p>We have learned why and how the reactions and formulas work. They just learn that there are formulas and reactions and they don’t know why. Their is a huge difference there. A chemist who understand the absolute fundamentals of chemistry is going to understand chemistry infinitely better than a chemist who just knows how to go through the motions.</p>

439

<p>Well I work through my high school’s co-op program as a lab technician at the Dow Corning corporate site, the leader in silicone based product development and manufacturing. In my hall alone there are people with PhDs from top 10 universities, while some people just have a BS from a local low-tier university…making similar wages. If you’re going to college simply in preparation for a chemistry career, then from my experience you’ll be fine. I doubt chemists coming from Amherst aren’t prepared for chemistry related jobs…and I doubt those pursuing a 4 year degree won’t eventually learn the same things you’re learning now in high school.</p>

<p>Also you wrote in post #425

Although I agree with your logic (yep…by being “best” you must be “better”…), money isn’t the only factor…but in your case it is a major factor.</p>

440

<p>KK,</p>

<p>You will be very successful in whatever you do. Good luck and you deserve a lot of praise and respect for getting your dream!</p>