Do show us this data, please.
I had german measles too; and i’m curious about my titre for measles. I might check that out.
I do know that i had an allergic reaction to a teatnus/whooping cough booster a few years ago. It was horrible; never again.
@OhiBro “I don’t know that vaccinations cause autoimmune, but no one else can tell us that they don’t.”
I don’t know that wearing white socks cause autoimmune, but no one else can tell us that they don’t.
I don’t know that watching superhero movies cause autoimmune, but no one else can tell us that they don’t.
I don’t know know that watching TV cause autoimmune, but no one else can tell us that they don’t.
I can go on, but I hope that this illustrates the fallacy of this sentence.
As for correlations, well, in my intro course for stats, I taught “correlation does not equal causation”. Assuming that correlation = causation is yet another logical fallacy. My biological age for every year since my birth correlates pretty well with gas prices. So I guess that they raise gas prices in honor of my birthday, no?
I don’t know that my age causes gas prices to increase, but no one else can tell me that it doesn’t.
While there are a few cases in which there may be a connection between a vaccine and the appearance of an autoimmune disease, that is a far cry form the claimed “surge in autoimmune disease”.
What is for certain, is that the increase in number of kids who are not vaccinated has resulted in a surge of preventable deaths, long-term illnesses, and miscarriages.
But who cares about science when you have conspiracy nuts yelling on YouTube? I mean, who are you going to believe, a bunch of high educated a trained scientists, who have studied the phenomenon, done research, figured out mechanisms and processes, or a self-proclaimed “performance artists” who is trying to sell you his bottles of fake treatments for fake conditions? The performance artist, of course!
The CDC recommended vaccination schedule 1995 - when my youngest was born…https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/PDF/rr/rr4405.pdf. Table 1 page 2
The CDC recommended vaccination schedule 2019. https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/schedules/hcp/imz/child-adolescent.html
There is HUGE difference in those schedules. Most of the posters here had kids on a much less aggressive schedule than is recommended today. Frankly, if I had a little one I’d find a provider who’d agreed to space out the vaccines. Some things like hepatitis just aren’t a risk for the general population during infancy.
So one can be pro vaccine and yet still balk at the overload proposed for such young bodies.
Sometimes it’s not completely one way or the other. Well informed parents would be justified in insisting that this schedule be spread out over a longer timeframe. And this wouldn’t make them ‘anti-vaxers’.
As well informed people know, you can take one medication - and have a reasonable expectation of understanding the potential side effects. If you take two medications - you can probably still have a reasonable expectation of understanding the potential side effects. Add a third, a fourth a fifth - and take them all at once and you really can’t know how the combination will interact. So really, maybe we just need to uncouple some of these vaccines and give them in a more moderate and single dose basis.
Yeah. They literally can. That’s how science works and that’s not how autoimmune diseases work.
And you know what? Even IF someone could prove that my autoimmune diseases were caused by vaccines - which you can’t and autoimmune disease in my family has predated vaccines but I digress - I will still recommend everyone get them. I hate having lupus, RA, and Sjogren’s (+ others I’m sure they’ve just never bothered to dx because what’s the point when the treatment is the same), ** but it’s still better than people contracting and dying of preventable diseases.**
And you want to know why autoimmune diseases are “surging”? ** Because we’re living through them in ways we weren’t a few decades ago.** The average lifespan for someone dx’ed with lupus was 5 years in the 60s. Today, with proper treatment, we’ll live about 90% of the average lifespan (so ~late 60s).
Babies get exposed to millions of germs every single day. Vaccines do not in any way “overload” young bodies. It’s a bunch of crap by anti-vaxxers that has absolutely zero scientific merit.
I’m living in the middle of a measles outbreak and I’m afraid to go out. My sisters-in-law are afraid for my niblings. Any patience I ever had has been gone for a long time and now I’m just angry. I’m angriest at so-called pro-science people who continue to play into the anti-vaxx paranoia by promoting the “they’re overloading our babies!” rhetoric.
(and now I’m going to slink back into the shadows. carry on.)
Thank you, @dietz199 ! Very well said. For others, please read post 3903.
@MWolf , I know the difference between causation and correlation. I also know there are viable hypotheses in the medical community that could connect vaccines to autoimmune, but seriously doubt there are any hypotheses connecting superhero movies to autoimmune.
@Mwfan1921 , no data here. But every news story about autoimmune says they are increasing, and dietz199 showed the increase in vaccines. And it is also known that immigrants coming from countries with low autoimmune acquire the rates of the new country. Vaccines are offered to them as they enter the new country.
@doschicos , yes, could be anything, including PFA’s. And there doesn’t have to be a single cause, as @romanigypsyeyes suggests by saying autoimmune predates vaccines.
I am not an anti-vaxer. Probably the same approach as @dietz199 . My point is simply that there is enough uncertainty about vaccines to refrain from calling someone a criminal for not vaccinating. @jym626 , the criminal behavior in the example you give is not the anti-vax decision, it was boarding a plane with measles. Subtle, but important distinction. Maybe it could/should be such a hassle and legal liability to not vaccinate that everyone will choose to vaccinate, but vaccinating can’t become a requirement for existing.
The fact of the matter is that the vaccines most of US received back in the old days had MANY MANY MANY more antigens in them. Even though young children get more vaccines today, the antigenic load is a fraction of what it used to be. So the whole argument about extending the schedule isn’t really based on reality, and only leaves them vulnerable when they don’t need to be
And Romani is also correct. Babies are exposed to many germs every day-this is how their little immune systems learn to start recognizing the bad stuff and protect them from it the next time they come into contact with it.
It’s hard to prove a negative. I think that’s why people like to use them as some sort of evidence of whatever agenda they are trying to promote.
Well, this is interesting…
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2870374/
Appears that annual flu vaccinations starting in childhood (current recommendation - staring at 6 months) increases the risk of flu related issues in later years.
Study from the University of Michigan - I think they qualify as ‘scientific’…http://www.cidrap.umn.edu/news-perspective/2014/11/study-adds-more-data-effects-consecutive-year-flu-shots.
So, the effectiveness rate in children un 9 is 4%??? But it’s recommended to vaccinate at 6 months.
hmmmmm…
@dietz199 have you read up on any of the illnesses for which the babies are being vaccinated?
Every disease for which the babies get vaccinations kills. It is as simple as that, and viruses don’t wait around patiently until a parent thinks that their kid is “ready” for another set. As more idiot parents refuse to vaccinate their kids, the more likely it is that your kid will be exposed to somebody with one of those deadly diseases, and the longer you wait to vaccinate your child, the more likely it is that they will be infected.
@ohiobro- I never said the antivaxxers are criminals. I was using the expression “it’s criminal!” Don’t take it literally.
The airline should never have let them board. What the family did was selfish, reckless and outrageous.
Yes, I would say anti-vaxxers are highly irresponsible and selfish. “Why should I stop at the four-way stop sign? Somebody else will stop, so what’s the big deal?”
Oy, I have so many things to respond to that I don’t even know where to start.
This argument: *Post hoc ergo propter hoc. *
More people are diagnosed with autoimmune diseases now than 40 years ago because we KNOW more now. People had them, but they were unknown. We didn’t even have the tools of protein chemistry until 50 years ago.
And as far as flu-vaccine effectiveness rates, it’s exponential. If 32 of 100 people who are vaccinated avoid influenza, the reduction of influenza circulating in the community is multiples of that.
I haven’t read one article about a religion that forbids vaccinations. (And that is why four states have eliminated the religious exemption and did not lose the legal challenge.)
@dietz199, if you read the study it’s comparing flu vaccination to natural influenza infection. IOW, what it shows is that the likelihood of getting the flu after repeated years of vaccination is higher than the likelihood of getting the flu again after being infected in a previous year. Getting the illness itself confers greater protection going forward than the vaccine.
Of course the hitch is that in order to get that greater protection one has to fall ill with the flu, exactly what we’re all trying to avoid. If a vaccinated person does come down with the flu they’re going to get that greater protection but they’re also going to deal with all the medical issues of having the flu.
The real question they seem to be exploring is whether early and often repeated vaccination increases the likelihood of infection in older age, at a time when they’re more at risk for serious complications.
However the authors also noted that
@Sue22 Yes. I did read the study, all of it. It points to a conflict of interest between herd immunity and personal immunity (at least that’s what I took away from my reading).
And an effectiveness of 4% in children under 9 should induce at least a moment’s pause and brain cycle or two of consideration.
@MWolf. I am well aware of the illnesses prevented by vaccinations. My parents were first in line, making sure I got the sugar cube polio vaccine, as well as the M and M and R. H and I got a measles booster a while ago since we travel quite a bit. We slugged it thru the Shingrex vaccine. So, no lecture needed we are not anti-vaxers.
DS had a terrifying reaction to his second MMR - fever of 106 !!! His PCP was wise enough to give single doses and remove the most likely offender (honestly, I don’t remember if it was mumps or measles component that was the suspect)
Here are the similarities and differences:
Same:
HepB (hepatitis B)
MMR (measles, mumps, rubella)
Hib (haemophilus influenzae)
Same disease, different vaccine:
DTP → DTaP (diptheria, tetanus, pertussis → acellular pertussis in 1997)
OPV → IPV (oral polio vaccine → inactivated polio vaccine)
Added:
RV5 or RV1 (rotavirus vaccine became available 2006)
PCV13 (pneumonococcal conjugate vaccine became available 2001)
IIV or LAIV (influenza)
VAR (varicella vaccine became available 1995)
HepA (hepatitis A vaccine became available 1995)
MenACWY (meningitis ACWY vaccine became available 2005)
HPV (human papillomavorus 4-valent vaccine became available 2006, 9-valent vaccine became available 2014)
MenB (meningitis B vaccine became available 2014)
PPSV23 (pneumonococcal 23-valent polysaccharide)
In other words, all of the added vaccines except for influenza and PPSV23 were ones that were not available when the 1995 recommendation was being written.
The HepB vaccine is given at birth because mothers with undiagnosed hepatitis B commonly pass it to their newborns, and those infected in infancy are more likely to be stuck with chronic infection for life, increasing the risk of liver cancer and other liver problems.
Meningococcal B vaccine is not on the CDC schedule. It should be. But ACIP voted not to add it to the recommended schedule precisely because of the people who throw fits whenever a new vax is added. To be clear, it’s not that ACIP recommends AGAINST it—they just did not put it on the recommended schedule. I know this via a direct communication with someone who sits on ACIP.
You’d be quite foolish not to avail your teenagers of the meningococcal B vaccine, especially if they are going to college.
Thankfully sone Us DO require and most at least strongly recommend the meningitis B shot. We did get it when it was available before D moved into the dorm. It wasn’t yet developed when S moved in years earlier.
@dietz199 Re: flu vaccines and young kids. That’s one study. A meta-analysis in 2013 of over 2,000 studies had different conclusions: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3662362/
Of course pediatricians should be careful, and kids should be monitored, but I don’t think that making blanket statements based on a personal anecdote and a single study is wise.
That being said, I am happy that your kid was OK at the end, and that they found the right combination of vaccinations for him.