When should school shift to a more pre-professional (versus preparing for more school) emphasis?
The typical high school curriculum is generally aimed at preparing for more school, due to the need for more school (including associates degrees and vocational programs as well as bachelor’s degrees) for most professions that are seen as having a good career track.
However, in college, there does seem to be disagreement about how much pre-professional emphasis there should be, even though most bachelor’s degree graduates will go to the work force after graduation. Indeed, we see statements like “college is not job training” here.
Of course, increasing pre-professional emphasis does not necessarily mean that one’s major or course work has to be explicitly pre-professional. But it can be hard for college students to ignore their entry into the job market in a few years.
I’m not sure. I’m not familiar with current views on reform and don’t have any original ideas.
I think I’d like to see competency-based learning? some day. Is that what it’s called? I heard Sal Kahn give a talk on it. You don’t go on to the next level by passing with a C. You go on to the next level when you understand the material.
I think I’d be in favor of ideas that made school learning more relevant to the outside real world. Too many discouraged students who don’t see “the point”, and who don’t see how in the world to get from “here” to somewhere else “better”.
And maybe I wish there was more work-study at the high school level, a taste of apprenticeships or careers or something.
Re: pre-professional emphasis. I have often wondered if people would learn and retain more if they took, for example, math for health professionals, or math for finance majors, or math for engineers, or math for x instead of Algebra, Stats, Calc, etc. Would tying it into their intended field of study, help the quality of education all around?
Theoretically, a C grade should mean solidly passing and ready for the next level, with B and A grades indicating a higher level of performance.
Yes, it is common to see discussions here that indicate that some students have difficulty with the idea of applying the skills learned in college while studying a not-explicitly-pre-professional college major to various possible career options. Also, the idea that elective choices, even among courses that are not in explicitly pre-professional subjects, can affect what one can do after graduation.
This is already done to some extent in college. Colleges commonly have different single variable calculus courses for students in different majors.
Funny, my youngest son was just talking about this yesterday after a beach party where he connected w many friends a little older than him who had gone off to college two or three years prior. He was dismayed that the majority of them were sophomores and juniors (in top LACs) who had absolutely no idea what they wanted to do when they graduated and or no summer job nor internship. His literal words to me were “thank God Im going to Penn where its known to be a pre-professional environment and you are expected to maximize your resume and summer internships towards your future job prospects… how can they waste their summers”?
I told him there is something to be said for taking life as it comes along and seizing opportunities as they present in their due time… I’m sure it will work out for them all and a preprofessional mindset does seem like a whole lot of undue stress…
Yet as I watch my first son spend another summer on beach patrol rather than in an internship as he goes into his senior year at college … the thought of him coming home to my couch puts me slightly in the lets-up-the-pre-professional-vibe camp…
The student who is motivated to prepare for post-graduation life can probably do so at any college, regardless of how pre-professional or not the vibe is. But it does seem that many students are rather aimless in this respect and graduate not very well prepared for post-graduation life. Or they may have aimed all of their academics and activities to some post-graduation goal that ended up being unreachable (e.g. pre-meds who get shut out of all medical schools) but did not make sufficient backup plans.
@ucbalumnus IIRC, Kahn’s argument was that a C means the student is grasping 70% of the material. IOW, not grasping 30%. He argued that moving on to the next level with that kind of gap, will eventually catch up with most students. I hadn’t ever thought of it that way. I think it was a Commonwealth Club talk. Not sure. It was interesting, for sure.
Whether the typical high school grading standard makes sense depends on how the test is written. If 70% of the test covered the range of material that a passing (C) student should know before going on to the next course, with the rest being harder problems on the same material for B and A students, then there should be no issue here. (Though perhaps there could still be students with gaps in knowledge on the “C student” part of the test, but gain points by solving some of the harder problems on the “B and A student” part of the test.)
However, what he may be saying is that most high school tests are not structured this way, but instead made of easier problems covering the range of material, so that a student with significant gaps in his/her knowledge could still earn a C (or higher) in the course.
You cannot fathom the number of college kids who do not take advantage of the resources on campus at Career Development. They do not have a professional help them with their resume. They do not sign up for “meet and greet” events where companies send representatives to chat with students on an informal basis. They do not go to career fairs. They do not log in to their student portal to see which interviews they can sign up for. They don’t do practice interviews- with video- to get help on irritating vocal tics (like Y’know?) or help polish their performance.
Colleges invest lots of time and money into building a professional transition network- alumni who are involved and happy to help, career coaches, plus all the advisors who know Fulbright/Marshall/fellowship opportunities and how to apply to the Peace Corps or TFA.
And parents wonder why it’s Xmas break of senior year and their kid doesn’t have a job lined up yet.
Why? Because they haven’t bothered to wander over to their Career Services office.
I wish schools would mandate a course that makes these students get over to career services and participate at least for one semester (in order to graduate) …bc I know many (my eldest son included) who are too lazy or too busy w their sport to take those steps…
Mandate? You are talking about 21 year olds who are on the verge of graduating with no job, no plan, and no means of support. How much more incentive could there possibly be besides homelessness and not being able to pay the cellphone bill?
Tell your kid to stop being so busy with his sport and get a reality check. He is going to be a senior- which means 10 more months of a meal plan and unlimited hot water for as many showers as he wants. And after that- What’s the plan?
And mean it. Some kids need to know that adulthood isn’t like college.
The problem is he is making too much money on beach patrol for the summers so he pays his own cell phone, car insurance, gas, food etc even rented a room in a beach house for the summer so he doesn’t worry about drinking and driving or “miss anything” fun wise…
so in his mind it will all work out in due time and he will be ok … I need to “chill”… he thinks he has it all figured out… believe me there is nothing I haven’t tried saying to get him moving in a REAL pre-professional way…
But thats on him now… In fairness to him he said he is going to full-court-press-it this year…
Some schools actually do mandate it (Temple business school for one) probably bc they don’t want to be embarrassed by the graduates they put out if not… and I think thats a good thing…
AMEN. And the career centers exist everywhere. My kid’s LAC has a formal alumni mentoring program, a formal (resume help, interview help etc) program that once completed allows students to apply for internships not available to the students at large, the daily email reports what employers/alumni in a field/speakers are on campus hosting a lunch or dinner chat or interviewing and how to join.
You bet she does ALL of that, as a frosh. This is what we’re paying for, in some part. It’s just ridiculous not to take advantage of as many of these resources as possible.
It depends on what your customer wants and that is what families are-customers.
If the school caters to families who primarily value college for intellectual stimulation and growth opportunities, it can afford to be less preprofessional.
If it caters to those who view the primary goal of college to be a self supporting adult, then it skews more pre-professional.
@ucbalumnus Yes, beach patrol is seasonal…That is part of the problem… the “now” faced by many college students isn’t so bad that they feel they have to hurry or push themselves to make real future plans… first world problems I guess
Son is majoring in data analytics… there are supposed to be many jobs… I guess he will find out soon enough.
Still I tell him, an internship would perhaps get have gotten him a better first job…
My neighbor was telling me a school they looked at -I think it was Longwood University -required all majors to complete at least one internship in order to graduate. I think this is a superb idea! It gets them in a pre-professional mindset even if they are going on to grad school bc it helps them to actually see/think about future careers and learn from a hands on experience…
My opinion, as a consumer, is that pushing pre-professional vibe in some form is really important to the big picture.
However, if the required internship has to be for credit rather than for pay, some students who would otherwise seek and be able to get paid internships may find that to be a disadvantage. In addition, the students who may not find anything but unpaid internships of dubious value (see the other unpaid internship threads) may prefer to take paid jobs (which at least give workplace experience, even if not related to academic studies and career intentions) instead.
Last academic year, did he look for a paid job/internship relating to his major and/or career intentions for this summer?
IDK - I bet many of the Longwood University internships are paid internships and it sounds like they are flexible re your concerns.
From their website:
Longwood is one of the few institutions in the country to require all students to complete an internship or similar learning experience before graduation Longwood requires an internship or research project for every student in every major. Internships are required for all Longwood students as part of the General Education curriculum (Goal 15). Beyond their presence as a part of the University’s curriculum, internships are exceptional ways for students to apply and test the theories and skills they have learned in their coursework at Longwood. Plus, students gain practical experience that may prove beneficial when they are entering the job market.
.Communication studies students have completed internships with the following:
The Late Show with David Letterman
The New York Times Company
Washington Redskins
Booz Allen Hamilton
Longwood Center for the Visual Arts
Special Olympics Virginia
SunTrust Mortgage
WNOR-FM 99
Internal Revenue Service
Target Stores
NASA
Walt Disney World
WCVE-PBS23
Siddall, Inc.
Cincinnati Reds
Reading further in their website it sounds like they have the students utilize the career center as they would a job to secure these internship …very practical IMO! BC they will leave w hands on experience of what It takes to market themselves I personally think this is awesome!
But then are they required to be unpaid interships for credit, or can they be paid internships? If the latter, how would they be distinguished from some other paid job for the purpose of fulfilling the requirement?
For example, could a summer job in beach patrol count as a relevant internship for a student with a major in theraputic recreation, exercise science, or athletic training (all of which are offered as majors at Longwood)?
Yes, but it’s more natural at schools with a pre-professional vibe – particularly the elite ones. Someone upthread mentioned Penn. Cornell has a similar atmosphere. When preparing for and competing for the “what’s next” after college – whether it’s a job or a graduate program – is the obsession of everyone around you, it’s likely to be your obsession, too.
Of course, there is also a faction that looks down on the Penns and Cornells of this world for just this reason.
But internships are not easy to get. I’d hate for it to be a requirement unless the guarantee to place you somewhere (if you don’t find one on your own).
IIRC, my D’s school’s Career Center meets with every single first year student (I think within the first semester). This gets them thinking about what’s next (career or grad school) and puts the center on their “radar”.
