<p>I've been on CC for a while and I've heard people bash Penn, Duke, and Cornell (to an extent) for being too pre-professional. However, CCers laud Columbia and UChi for being intellectual, liberal artists. Considering a substantial number of CCers want to go to med school, law, or ibanking I find it weird that CCers are like bah...pre-professional. Anyone else have takes on this?</p>
<p>It's just a matter of what your looking for in a school. Many people want a college that is "intellectual or liberal artsy" even though they have pre-professional goals. People have multiple interests, they can want to go to law school but still want an intellectual college experience. College students are not lawyers yet and may still want to enjoy their "pre-law" years in an environment that is multidimensional. (I just used law here as an example but it applies to any other pre-professional occupation).</p>
<p>Well, I think there's something admirable about going to college for the sake of the material and experience itself (specifically the academic experience for the sake of this argument) rather than using it primarily jumping point to some extraordinary job.</p>
<p>I, personally, see absolutely nothing wrong with pre-professional universities. I actually would rather attend these institutions because they prepare me very well in whatever field I want to go into. They typically offer many useful interdisciplinary majors or accelerated degree programs. Those are what I'm interested in primarily. I'm not saying that the other universities wouldn't prepare me as well, but I would like to form some useful contacts in college. I don't know exactly how useful my undergrad experience would be if most people were aiming to become researchers/professors, when I want to do business.</p>
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<p>I just finished reading (one of many) pie-in-the-sky kinds of articles about a liberal arts education versus a "useful" education. The author argued that critical thinking, the ability to understand other cultures, and the ability to think from the point of view of another person were necessary in maintaining a democratic society like ours and that these abilities were fostered from a liberal arts education and were not present in a "useful" education. I'm not sure if I agree, BTW.</p>
<p>Note that "pre-professional" is an overused term that points more towards the student than the school. Schools like Cornell, Penn, and Duke offer extensive, high-quality liberal arts options, yet maybe some posters think that students at these schools are too focused on a career to enjoy that class on Plato or that Astronomy class. I also don't know how true that is-- if students at one of these schools had NO interest in Greek literature, etc., there wouldn't be any enrollment in these classes. So when posters discuss "pre-professionalism" at schools, they are merely pointing to the fact that a lot of students are striving to be doctors, lawyers, businessmen, etc. Some study specifically for that career.</p>
<p>Chicago does have a lot of students going into professional fields (as well as less lucrative fields, like education, non-profit, research, etc.) but because both it and Columbia have extensive liberal arts core curricula, they are often cited as more "liberal arts"-- more "intellectual," if you will.</p>
<p>A TRUE pre-professional degree is degree in business, communications, education, marketing, physical therapy, real estate etc.-- majors that are usually not offered in the top 20 schools.</p>
<p>I personally liked "pre-professional" schools mroe because they usually focused on subjects that I'm interested in (my major). As aqyamarinee said, these programs prepare you well for a career, which is what I wanted out of college. Of course, not everybody wants this, but a significant proportion do.</p>
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<p>Once in the working world, there are still many opportunities to learn in the field- courses, seminars, etc. There are many opportunities to earn professional master's degrees. And most will be paid for by your employer! That is why I prefer the more intellectual schools. Your time in life to take courses in history, literature, languages, etc, is pretty limited, so take advantage of it. Afterwards, you probably won't have the time and money to take liberal arts courses. You can still read books, of course (and I do).</p>
<p>Let me give you another perspective:</p>
<p>Here is a case study of two kids who recently graduated Summa Cum Laude. One attended Brandeis and majored in math and the other just graduated from Washington University St. Louis and majored in Political Science. Both have no jobs despite having a number of interviews. Perhaps they are being too picky. They both will be going to grad school as a result of this dissappointing situation.</p>
<p>I also met some folks who majored in nursing, accounting, and engineering, computer science respectively,which are considered "pre-professional" degrees. All of these kids are employed and earning a very nice starting salary.</p>
<p>I don't know how indicative these examples are to the population as a whole;however, it does give some food for thought.</p>
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<p>Taxguy is absolutely right. I've seen it a million time, and was like the people in his examples. The intellectual school only pays off if you plan to attend graduate school immediately, or have a line on a job. Or, have a reasonable plan such as teaching for awhile and then going to grad school. It is also possible to go to a "preprofessional" school, major in a liberal art, and end up in the same position as someone who went to an intellectual school and majored in a liberal art. I still think that if intellecualism appeals to you, it's better and easier to do that early and the professional stuff later than the other way around.</p>
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<p>The common thread that I have seen with my friends kids who have landed jobs prior to college graduation is that they have majored in "business" or engineering. They have come from a variety of "types" of schools including U Mich, Delaware, Duke and Colgate.<br>
The "Liberal arts" majors from U Rochester, Wesleyan etc- had a much tougher time. Eventually they found jobs in the non- profit sector, but one of those kids is is now contemplating going back to grad school for an MSW. A lot of kids I know are also going directly to graduate/ Law school. Whether it is because it is a true calling or they haven't figured out what they want to do when they "grow up". My kid is probably in that category as she too is thinking Law school.
My d is now a senior at Cornell -ILR. She's not looking at Corporate jobs (at least as of yesterday), but she is getting a bit nervous watching the AEM and other business kids getting "suited" up and going to Recruiting Info sessions on campus. Job Fairs will be going on for the next month or 2.
I think that may bring some unease to many college seniors as they are quickly realizing that their college days are almost over and they may be facing the reality of the real world next year. </p>
<p>My kids nor I have ever been real fans of LAC's- mostly because the environment seemed too small or confining. U of Rochester was probably the smallest school my d considered.
But I have often wondered whether this idealized "intellectual" environment and praise one hears on CC about LAC's is coming from the parent who hasn't been in school for 20 plus years -- or it truly is coming from the own student's perspective. </p>
<p>Somehow I think the "week-end environment" at many of the schools are pretty similar- be it Cornell or Williams (or other LAC's).
Whether we parents like to admit it or not- there is alot of drinking, partying, and a whole host of things we as parents don't want to think about. Somehow I think the "intellectual" discussions at the Frat house on a Sat night at U Penn or a LAC sounds the same.
I think alot of parents on these boards have a very idealized and unrealistic perception of our kids college experience.<br>
College is a time to grow and learn- kids do alot of silly- stupid things when they are 18 to 22 years old. and it doesn't matter if they are at Cornell- UPenn- Amherst or Podunk U.- kids are kids!!</p>
<p>And FredFred- I agree- there does seem to be a bit of bashing towards "pre-professional" college environments- But trust me, there is even more bashing towards Public U's -</p>
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<p>I chose an "intellectual" school because I didn't want to sacrifice four years of college to the stress and grind of thinking about a job or professional graduate school. I felt like I spent a good part of high school stressing out about college, and I did not want to spend a good part of college stressing out about future endeavors. If anything, I wanted to stress out about the work that was sitting in front of me.</p>
<p>Right now, I have a few career options in mind, all sort of loosely sketched out, and all sort of floating around... teaching, a PhD, administration, advising, writing. Rather than major in education and have the teaching career path set, rather than studying journalism and becoming a reporter, I want to take time to explore the academic world, first because I love academics and second because I feel like I'll never be able study academically again. I understand that it might not help me with my career, but I'm willing to sacrifice that job security for having the kind of undergraduate education that I want.</p>
<p>On the other hand, my brother just finished up his college degree and somewhat regrets that he didn't go a more pre-professional route.</p>
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<p>unalove- my kid didn't really start thinking or stressing about a job or her "future endeavors" until now- her senior year.<br>
Once those Recruiters come on campus during your senior year- and your friends and classmates get "suited" up for interviews, I think the dynamics of your environment change even if you are on the most "intellectual" campus.
If you have already made the decision to go for Grad school, then you can stay away from the stress of Senior year recruiting/ and job interviewing.</p>
<p>We are dividing majors between pre-professional and pure intellectual or liberal arts pursuits. I guess the perception is that only with liberal arts majors will one get true skills in reading, clear thinking and writing. Frankly, I don't believe this to be true. Many pre-professional majors also have to take liberal arts courses in english, history, humanities etc. </p>
<p>To me, majoring in a pre-professional major gives the best of all worlds: a better chance of a job and career upon graduation and training in clear thinking, reading and writing, not to mention whatever skills the pre-professional major provides.</p>
<p>At the elite colleges, most students go on to advanced degrees. Although many enter the workforce for a while before going back to school, the pattern of further education means that the bachelor's degree is not necessarily the primary credential for later employment. Students should focus on a college that suits their purposes for college. Their grad or prof degree will be more important in their careers.</p>
<p>The "pre professional" vs "intellectual" character easily can be exaggerated. There are plenty of students at Chicago and Swarthmore headed for professional school and plenty of kids at Penn end up with PhD's. All these places prepare students for both.</p>
<p>Maybe we're twisting two different things here: one is the value of a pre-professional degree versus a liberal arts degree, the other is the character of an institution. As afan said, the character of an institution is more flexible-- I believe (though I haven't really run into anybody like this at Chicago) that you can be "Doctor! Lawyer! Banker! Oh my!" at a school like Chicago or Swarthmore, and you can be eating a bowl of cherries and discussing Sartre at Penn or Duke. The school is not preventing you from conducting your life one way or another, though one may feel more comfortable at one school than at another. </p>
<p>However, when we get to the idea of pre-professional DEGREES, I'm really surprised how many people support them. IMO, pre-professional degrees are narrow slices of a world of possibilities, and I don't understand how my friends who are in pre-professional programs (architecture, journalism, education, etc.) know that that's what they want to do for the rest of their lives. And most likely, their career paths will change. A father of a friend got his degree in architecture, and after he realized he wasn't good enough at designing buildings to make a living, he began a lucrative career in selling the buildings he couldn't design. I'm sure this is only one example of something that happens over and over again.</p>
<p>Then again, a liberal arts degree suits my own goals of wanting to learn more academically and wanting to explore different fields. As I mentioned earlier, I have sketches of what I might want to do for a living, so I don't think I'll be left behind, so to speak, compared to pre-professional grads as long as I and others work on our job searches. Many, many liberal arts people eventually make their way into the business and professional world as well-- somebody told me that the major with the highest admit rate to law school was a classics major.</p>
<p>It's a false dichotomy that has its roots in American intellectual history. Ralph Waldo Emerson and the Transendentalist Movement tended to see learning as a series of peak experiences, best achieved in an ivory tower atmosphere. The fact that this movement tended to be centered around Harvard and its mixture of puritan and charismatic preacher/teachers probably accounts for its tenacity in the New England region. Benjamin Franklin, one of this country's greatest intellects, broke with the transendentalists in his famous pilgrimage from Boston to Philadelphia where he put his ideas of merging practical learning and real life experience to the test by founding the College of Philadelphia, which as we all know, became the University of Pennsylvania. I think Franklin's and Emerson's ideas have co-existed in a kind of tension throughout the history of American higher education.</p>
<p>Money. doesn't this debate come down to the potential to service the debt incurred during the years in question?</p>
<p>the avg indebtedness of a college student is $19,000. Whatever activity after college that can start paying that debt off is a good activity. If the type of college cannot lead to something that can service this debt, then it is not that wise of a choice. It would lead to bankrupty and nasty financial things that can stay with you for a long time.</p>
<p>See the thread where the kid does not want/cannot pay her loans after not finding a job after majoring in anthropology.</p>
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<p>Pre-professional environment keeps me on my toes. I enjoy the competition, and I want my parent's 45k per year to produce results. I'll deal with enlightenment when I retire.</p>
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<p>"I'll deal with enlightenment when I retire."</p>
<p>-:)</p>
<p>Hmm, it's kinda hard to generalize how well a pre-professional/liberal arts major is recruited. IMHO, it's the name of the school, and its networks and reputation - that helps the most in recruitment. The more famous LACs and Unis and Public Unis will find this easier.</p>
<p>Having said that, I don't bash pre-professional pursuits. Just choose what you want really. </p>
<p>But for me, I want liberal arts, and I want to go in depth in many fields. That's my cup of tea, and my college has pretty good recruitment. So, a balance between practical and idealistic pursuit is key.</p>