Where do we start?

Parent Cafe
41

<p>"Thank you all very much. One other factors in selecting only top name universities is the peer pressure. Most of the Chinese we know send their kids to these universities. If my DD does not get in one of them, I would "lose face".</p>

<p>As an African American who has withstood various pressures from my community about things that my family does, I empathize with your situation (though I know that due to cultural differences, our situations aren't exactly alike).</p>

<p>At the same time, I believe that the best way that we can teach our kids to not cave into peer pressure is by being good role models showing them how we withstand the pressure from our own peers. It may be that a non top name school is the best match for your D and/or your family finances.</p>

<p>Our being good role models also is important when it comes to showing our kids how they can rise above challenges and disappointments. Often, how we react to disappointments determines how other people respond to our situation.</p>

<p>I could have lost face when my S didn't apply to college, but chose to take a gap year during Americorps instead. All of his friends were headed to college, including some going to very renowned ones. Meanwhile, my S never even got around to applying to college because he procrastinated past their deadlines, and couldn't figure out what kind of college he wished to go to or what he wanted to major in. I happen have several Asian friends who, I think, initially were looking at my S's situation with pity and probably secretly thought that I hadn't been a very responsible parent for my S to not have even applied to college. Frankly, I'd bet that my black and white friends also were pitying me, too! Everyone we knew was proudly sending their kids off to college.</p>

<p>I truly, however, thought that S made the best decision for him. If he wasn't ready to go to college, far better for him to take a productive year off and learn more about himself, the world, and how college could help him use his talents. And that's what has happened.</p>

<p>Through his volunteer work, S has figured out what he wants to major in, and also has learned the importance of some skills (like being organized, and not procrastinating) that he had avoided paying attention to in high school, but now knows are essential in the real world.</p>

<p>In the long term, what matters is that we help our offspring make decisions that help them best use their talents and skills and have fulfiilling lives. IN your case, that may be sending your D to a public university or a private university that would give her lots of merit money, making more family money available for her education after she finishes college. Of course, it also may mean stretching your budget to send her to a high priced school that is a great fit for her.</p>

<p>Others whom we respect may not agree with us about our decisions, and that can be uncomfortable for us, but it would be far worse for us to get our kids to do things that don't make them happy and that may not fit into our family's financial and other constraints.</p>

42

<p>
[quote]
Reed gives zippo merit aid

[/quote]

True, but Reed gives full need-based aid, so the money is there.</p>

43

<p>Regarding MIT: they invite students who do well on their PSATs, as your daughter did, and who indicate an interest in engineering to come to informational seminars. It's an opportunity for MIT to present itself to a large group. I have (as an alum) participated in such seminars. They are not recruiting seminars as much as informational seminars presented by a large and often misunderstood university.</p>

<p>MIT is a wonderful school for the right student, but the student MUST love science and nerdy activities or s/he will not fit in well. MIT students build things just for the fun of it, take a year or two of calculus (after AP calculus), a year of physics, bio, chemistry, and 8 semesters of humanities courses (and economics is considered a humanities course, NOT a science/math course)--and those are just the requirements before you can major in something. MIT gives seminars to disabuse students of the idea that MIT is anything by a HARD HARD college to attend.</p>

<p>While your daughter could well be an excellent candidate for MIT and she IS an excellent student, you must realize that her statistics put her squarely in the middle of the applicant field.</p>

44

<p>As for Reed (which my daughter attends), it is an excellent school where undergraduate students actually do real research. They do not offer merit aid and their financial aid is notoriously minimalist (my D's friends with aid are hardpressed, honestly). </p>

<p>Carleton offers merit aid to NMFs.</p>

<p>Haverford and Bryn Mawr also offer excellent research opportunities for undergraduates,</p>

45

<p>Just wanted to throw in an excellent resource for anyone wondering about the sciences at liberal arts colleges. It is from the Howard Hughes Medical Institute, and it discusses the excellent science education that LACs can provide, including profiles of several programs: <a href="http://www.hhmi.org/bulletin/summer2004/wellspring/%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.hhmi.org/bulletin/summer2004/wellspring/&lt;/a> If you read through all of the links on the article's page, you will also find detailed information about where PhD's in the sciences earn their undergraduate degrees that may surprise you.</p>

<p>Obviously, liberal arts colleges will not be right for every student, but a student who says she doesn't want a large college may want to investigate further before ruling them out. This is especially true for females in the sciences - research as shown that many liberal arts colleges like Carleton, Smith, and Swarthmore are excellent options for females interested in the sciences and produce high numbers of future female scientists.</p>

<p>By the way, in addition to the honors program at OSU, I'd recommend you also check into the honors tutorial program at Ohio University. It is excellent and quite prestigious, and a true educational value. <a href="http://www.honors.ohio.edu/index.htm%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.honors.ohio.edu/index.htm&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>If you are going to be footing the bill for four years of college plus medical school, an in-state honors college is a reasonable choice that no one should dispute or look down on you for. Frankly, I would worry less about "saving face" with others, and more about making a fully-informed choice that is best for your family. When your daughter has her doctorate and MD in hand, no one will question your choice.</p>

<p>Additionally, not sure if anyone has yet mentioned this option to you, but there are accelerated medical programs, where students go into med school at the end of their junior year in college, and also guaranteed medical school programs (Brown PLME) which guarantee a slot in med school as long as the undergrad GPA is maintained at a set level. You can find a list of the accelerated med programs at: <a href="http://services.aamc.org/currdir/section3/degree2.cfm?data=yes&program=bsmd%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://services.aamc.org/currdir/section3/degree2.cfm?data=yes&program=bsmd&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>I would also suggest that it would be a good idea to look into some summer programs for this year specifically focused on science. Look specifically for programs focused on science education for females. This will also help your daughter decide if science truly is her future, or if, perhaps, she wishes to pursue a different line of study. </p>

<p>I hope you (and others) will not be insulted by my saying this but be willing to support your daughter no matter what her plans and interests turn out to be, even if she is not destined to become a doctor or medical researcher. The saddest thing in the world to me is when an Asian student tells me that he or she is interested in majoring in political science or creative writing or journalism or sociology or == whatever == but feels he or she can not because of parental/cultural pressure to major in the "Asian majors" of pre-med, engineering and biotechnology. I know it is difficult in your culture to allow your child to take a different path, but I beg of you to be willing to think outside the box, for your daughter's sake, if she is not truly committed to a science career.</p>

46

<p>Carleton does offer merit aid to NMS, but only $1 or $2K per year. Not much of a dent.</p>

47

<p>Laserbrother</p>

<p>If you do some research on CC, you?ll find many comments about Asians in the college application process. There are Asian students who talk about the pressure they are under to get into a top-ranked Ivy. There are Asians who feel that they are discriminated against in the process, and others who respond that the top-ranked schools have a glut of applications from high-scoring Asians who want to study premed.</p>

<p>You mention ?losing face? if your daughter doesn?t go to a top-ranked university. This is exactly the type of pressure that many Asians talk about here on CC.</p>

<p>Your daughter sounds wonderful, and perhaps she will get into HYPS etc. But as you are starting this process, please be aware of these caveats. First ? all these top-ranked schools have acceptance rates hovering around 10 percent. That means 90 of every 100 students who apply do not get in, and most of those who don?t have high SATs, GPAs, etc. Second ? high GPA and high SATs do not guarantee admission to these schools. While your daughter?s EC are strong, they are not unique and do not stand out in the admissions pool. She does not appear to have a hook (like recruited athlete) that would boost her chances for admission.</p>

<p>There are many wonderful schools that would love your daughter, and where your daughter might love going. They may not be Harvard or MIT or Columbia. They might be a highly ranked LAC, or a lower-ranked university that everyone has not heard of. </p>

<p>If your daughter ends up at one of these, what you don?t want is for her to feel that she is a failure because she is not going to Harvard, Columbia or MIT. I certainly hope that you will still love and respect her if she goes someplace else. Let her know that. Please let her know that she will still be a wonderful person no matter where she goes to college, and will be successful in life no matter where she goes. The college-application process can be damaging enough to self-esteem without the additional pressure from parents and community that only Ivy will do.</p>

<p>When my daughter started this process, my husband and I told her over and over again that we loved her and that we would love her wherever she went to school. We hugged her a lot, too.</p>

48

<p>Two more random points:</p>

<ol>
<li><p>Why would you plan on taking both the SAT and the ACT? I don't think it's necessary to take both; I think all the schools you have mentioned would accept one or the other, or maybe just the SAT. Lots of people think the ACT is a better test, and some kids take both to see whether one set of scores is better to submit than the other. But if your daughter does well on the SATs this spring, there's no particular reason to take the ACT next fall.</p></li>
<li><p>If you start to look at liberal arts colleges, you will learn quickly that the best among them carry prestige equivalent to the top universities -- and I say that as a charter member of the top-university-snob club. Swarthmore, Haverford, Amherst, Williams, Wesleyan, Pomona, Reed, Wellesley . . . those and others, too, carry the same kind of "bang" that the Ivy League schools do. The stats of the kids at most of those are equivalent to the stats of kids at the Ivies. But you will face the same issue with them that you have at the prestigious research universities: they don't give significant scholarships based on "merit", only on "need". None of them need to give discounts to attract top students, so they don't.</p></li>
</ol>

49

<p>Can I suggest an idea to keep face and do the best for your daughter? Have her apply to schools that you can afford AND to the big name ones. Tell everyone she got into BigName College but your research showed you that Her Choice School will give her the best shot at medical school, and that there is no anti-Asian issues at her choice.
Or tell everyone she wants to go to Big Name School but you, her father, decided Her choice school is better for her and demanded she pick that one.
My son went to high school with a beautiful, lovely Asian girl who went to MIT. I suspect in her heart she went to the sciences rather than humanities for personal reasons, but also cultural ones.
Google "Elizabeth Shin" to see how it ended up. Not that this is a usual case, but still it shows the issues.</p>

50

<p>Echoing carolyn and her wonderful link to HHMI, and to further offer some "testimony" to the posts suggesting that LAC's can indeed teach science-</p>

<p>My D has been selected to do research with Dr. Mary Miller in her lab , beginning next week. As a second semester freshman from WideSpotInThe Road, Texas she is just blown away by the opportunity Rhodes College is giving her. </p>

<p><a href="http://www.rhodes.edu/155_4129.asp%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.rhodes.edu/155_4129.asp&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>Miller Receives NSF Grant
Mary Miller, a Rhodes assistant professor of biology, has received a $282,673 grant from the National Science Foundation to support her work on the regulation of cell division. Miller collaborates with researchers at the University of Toronto, The Rockefeller University and the University of Virginia and with several Rhodes students.
She works to understand how cell division is regulated by proteins called cyclins, and specifically how cyclin proteins change locations within a cell. The type of cyclin proteins that we study function to initiate the cell cycle. When mutated, the cell cycle initiates improperly, leading to the development of cancer, she explains. </p>

<p>Rhodes is a leader in breaking down the walls between teaching and research, and this award recognizes our forward thinking and success in this area, Miller adds. It is a great accomplishment because we stood in competition with research laboratories that are staffed by graduate students and post-doctoral fellows, **while my lab is staffed entirely by undergraduate students <a href="emphasis%20added">/b</a>. </p>

<p>Miller says that she is, of course, delighted to receive funding that will support her research for the next three years. Even more pleasing, she says, is the fact that what
we do here at Rhodes is being recognized and rewarded by the National Science Foundation.</p>

<hr>

<p>So very cool. My D had run into Dr. Miller on a visit and Dr. Miller had sat and talked with her without an appointment. Dr. Miller then sat on D's scholarship committee. Things have a way of working out. ;)</p>

51

<p>"We even moved from WV to OH to get "in state" status. But, she just said "it is too big"."</p>

<p>I second the suggestion to look at Miami of Ohio. It has a much more intimate feel than OSU, a beautiful Ivy League-style campus, and it's still in-state. Even though it's not terribly difficult to get in, it has all the resources to allow a smart and motivated student like your D to find challenging work. You might find yourself with a great merit scholarship, too.</p>

52

<p>OldinNewJersey: excellent and wise suggestion.</p>

<p>Since we're on the topic of Asian students, you may also want to read this article, about Asian students and potential bias in the college admissions process: <a href="http://www.insidehighered.com/news/2006/10/10/asian%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.insidehighered.com/news/2006/10/10/asian&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

53

<p>By leaving WV, you probably reduced your D's chances of getting into schools like HPY because WV is a poor state with low educational performances, and very few students from WV have the stats to go to places like HPY. Being from WV would have helped your D get a geographical tip into top colleges that consider such things. Her being Asian from WV also may have made her stand out since WV's population is overwhelmingly white.</p>

<p>Ohio is a more affluent state with more highly educated people, and many outstanding students from Ohio apply to places like Ivies, so she's not as likely to get any geographical tip. Asians also are not rare in Ohio.</p>

<p>That being said, she does have better public university options in Ohio.</p>

54

<p>Just a few more things to consider:</p>

<p>1) If your daughter really wants to do clinical biomed research then MD/PhD (maybe both!) is a NECESSITY. Where she goes to undergraduate school won't matter a whole lot - Ivy or Ivy-like might be nice, but it's basically a LUXURY. </p>

<p>Take this twist on the advice about delayed gratification that we often give our kids: sure, that Ivy bumper sticker may look great on the car NOW, but wouldn't you really rather have more options LATER, when it comes time for medical school?</p>

<p>[BTW I really like the approach that Curmudgeon's daughter is taking. Also I concur that one can get an EXCELLENT science education at a LAC.]</p>

<p>2) Have you thought about looking at a 6-year MD program? (Students enter as freshmen and 6 years later they graduate as MD's.) Several state U's have these - among them U-M, PSU, UPitt. I'll bet there are others as well, probably in Ohio. These programs are fiendishly difficult to get into - kids who are accepted almost all have Ivy-quality stats.</p>

<p>3) Have a look at Boston U - excellent biomedical engineering program, very interesting biostat program (they do the stats for the Framingham study there), AND very nice merit aid policies. Your daughter could probably get a half-tuition scholarship there if she plays her cards right, and perhaps even full tuition (look into Trustee's scholarship).</p>

<p>There are probably other places like Boston U out there - I just don't know about them.</p>

55

<p>Curmudgeon - congrats to Mudgie!</p>

56

<p>
[quote]
... MD/PhD (maybe both!) is a NECESSITY. Where she goes to undergraduate school won't matter a whole lot - Ivy or Ivy-like might be nice, but it's basically a LUXURY.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Be careful here! All undergraduate educations are not alike. A BA/BS graduate must be admitted to an MD or PhD program; it's not automatic, and statistically some undergraduate schools have better records at such admittances than others.</p>

57

<p>This thread concerns me for a lot of reasons.</p>

<p>I keep reading about what you, the OP, are looking for, concerned about, etc. This encompasses the type of school, the prestige of the school, even the major. I have seen no real indication that your daughter has had significant input into this process. I could be wrong, but that's my observation.</p>

<p>Why does your daughter want to do medical research? And in all honesty, it doesn't matter how smart and mature a student is, no high school student knows for sure what he/she wants to do in grad school. How will you react if she gets to college and changes her mind? What if she wants to be a journalist, a teacher, or some other less-prestigious career? Will she feel pressure because you might "lose face"?</p>

<p>Where's your daughter's interest in these particular schools? The fact that they are sought after in the culture of your Asian peers is not any sort of reason to have your daughter attend. To be blunt, the concerns and needs of your daughter should be far more important than what people might think.</p>

<p>When it comes to my children, I want to give them every single opportunity to succeed. However, the definition of success is mostly up to them. As long as they can support themselves, are happy, and aren't doing anything illegal, they can choose whatever career they want. My job as a parent is a facilitator, not an administrator. I see a lot more administrating in your posts than should be there for this type of decision. The school needs to fit your D and give her ample opportunities to explore both herself and a variety of subjects, as well as be affordable to your family (120,000/year is not remotely considered low-income).</p>

<p>Please turn the pressure cooker off.</p>

58

<p>"1) If your daughter really wants to do clinical biomed research then MD/PhD (maybe both!) is a NECESSITY. Where she goes to undergraduate school won't matter a whole lot - Ivy or Ivy-like might be nice, but it's basically a LUXURY."</p>

<p>At my d's college, approximately 40 first-year and 40 second-year students are given paid research assistantships for their first two years at the college, which is a national center for genomic research. Many have published papers by the time they are juniors. (There are also such positions in the humanities, my d. had one, and I can truly say that we discovered not one such paid position for first- or second-year students at ANY of the Ivies - not one.)</p>

59

<p>Mini, where does your daughter go to school if you don't mind sharing?</p>

60

<p>Mini, tried to edit my last question but the forum wouldn't let me. It must be Smith based on earlier posts.</p>