<p>marite, I think that what firsttimemom was implying was not that white males face a lot of discrimination. I am a white male and I have never felt that there existed overt discrimination against my demographic, and I obviously realize that the plights of women and minorities throughout history do not even compare to that of a white male. What I think firsttimemom was getting at was that people want women to succeed and they constantly encourage them to do so. I don't think people care as much about whether or not a white male succeeds, because they assume he has does not face discrimination, and therefore needs no encouragement. The problem is that everyone needs encouragement in order to succeed. In our society, males do not receive encouragement like females do, and I think that's a pretty incontrovertible fact. I think that the overwhelming stereotype if you look on TV is that women are simply smarter than men, and outdo them at everything. Why? Because America loves an underdog, and throughout our nation's history, women have been the underdog, and have faced sexism in every direction. I think that this underdog mentality has not only helped women to become more accomplished in the classroom, but it also accounts for the disparity between the sexes in entering college classes. But don't get me wrong, white men face the least amount of discrimination in our society, there's no denying that. My point is that our society subconsciously wants women to succeed more than it wants men to succeed.</p>
<p>I bet colleges will be secretly giving some "affirmative action" to men, if they aren't doing so already. In my opinion, elementary and high school education favors girls (I have one child of each sex) and more girls end up applying to college. Since colleges look for balance, some will favor male over female candidates, everything else being close.
Also, it is not just in finance that women drop out to raise kids. I work in journalism and our staff is 3/4 men, and that is primarily because the majority of women quit to have kids. I see it over and over.
And for the person who complained about the mother who gave her kids to the nanny to raise, why don't you complain as equally about the father? He could just as easily have stayed home. Women are supposed to be great students, then work hard, and be perfect mothers, too. No one complains if men are at work all the time and on the golf course on Saturday. We still have a lot of sex-based issues to deal with in our society.</p>
<p>jmarsh:</p>
<p>I have two boys and I have not seen any discrimination either overt or covert against them or their male classmates. What I have sometimes seen is loud, big boys drowning out the less assertive girls.<br>
One of my first experience in college in this country involved a heavy glass door (important to combat winter weather). As I tried to push it while carrying a pile of books, a male student a good foot and nearly a 100lbs heavier than I opened the door from the other side, grinned at me and said: "Tough, huh?" and did not bother to keep the door open for me. Going to my Ss's school, I've seen quite a few boys behave that way, 30 years on. And the glass door is still there for many girls.</p>
<p>An interesting article on the basis for evolutionary differences (men vs. women among them) <a href="http://slate.msn.com/id/2124503/%5B/url%5D">http://slate.msn.com/id/2124503/</a>.</p>
<p>Hmmmm the big bad loud boys, the poor passive girls.
Please, just keep up the stereotypes folks.
But let's all be offended by Roberts talking about giggling blonds in high school, it has to go both ways.</p>
<p>Well, I write as I found it, going to my S's school. Were there loud girls? yes. Were there quiet boys? yes? But boys' behavior was all too often excused by both parents and teachers as "boys will be boys." The same was not said of the loud, assertive girls.</p>
<p>Women of my generation who are assertive have too often be called "battle axes." And wasn't it only a few months ago that the Governator insulted his foes by calling them "girlie men?"</p>
<p>I intensely dislike it when people who are for the most part well off and even privileged start thinking themselves as victims. And that is what I am reacting to. It's one thing when young black males with absent fathers and no role models flounder in school. It's really another thing altogether when middle class boys start whingeing about being oppressed/repressed/misunderstood/not sufficiently encouraged. If this goes on, I can foresee a book about "Reviving Male Ophelias."</p>
<p>I said numerous times in my last post that I don't feel discrimination. I know I threw in the word "overt" before, but I take that back, there is no discimination against me, either overt or covert. Are boys IN GENERAL louder and more immature than girls, especially at a middle school age? Yes, and that's biological, there's nothing we can do about that. I agree that sexism still exists in our society, and the story about the glass door truly saddens me. Can I emphasize that I am NOT COMPLAINING??? The fact of the matter is that statistics show that women enroll in college in higher numbers than men do, there's no denying that. I was simply offering my opinion about what causes this. Girls receive more encouragement to excell academically based on deeply rooted societal issues, and although men may face much less discrimination in our society, that doesn't mean that they are fully equipped with the ability to succeed from the time they are born. Are they victims? Of course not. Could there be more done to encourage young boys to be better students? I believe so. </p>
<p>You can take that as whining and assume that I'm just a privileged punk who doesn't give a damn about the plights of others if you want, but my original post was in response to unfair, hypocritical stereotypes being thrown around about males in our society, and I still believe that those generalizations prove that a double standard exists.</p>
<p>By coincidence the Cambridge Chronicle published this article today. Even in 1945, boys were more likely to attend vocational school (Rindge) while girls were more likely to attend Cambridge High & Latin. This was definitely a pre-feminist, pre-PC generation. Most of the young women who attended Cambridge High & Latin would not have been expected to attend college. I doubt very much that in 1945, young women would have been encouraged to go into math and sciences, to become interested in current events, to see themselves as future lawyers or doctors. And yet, the gap existed. </p>
<p>"We're a wartime class, of course," said Eileen Dewire Locke, standing among classmates from the former Cambridge High and Latin School. "A lot of the boys left senior year to join the service."
Seventy-six members of the CHLS Class of 1945 gathered at Ryles Jazz Club Tuesday for their 60th high school reunion, and several recalled memories of a "wholesome" school which was dominated by women, as many males attended the Rindge Technical School next door.
But they also remember a girl-to-guy ratio affected by the World War II draft.</p>
<pre><code> "It's interesting. Probably most of the boys left high school to go into the service," said Joe Sheehan, who enlisted in the army at the end of his junior year and now lives in Maine. "And I think the war had a lot to do with keeping this class together, because of the memories."
</code></pre>
<p>Thanks for piping in, JMarsh, you clarified my post very nicely.</p>
<p>As for whining, my son was not whining, he was answering a question I asked and we were having a discussion about a difficult topic. I'll listen to anything my teens want to say, and adolescents are welcome to whine about anything they want to in my home and we will try to turn that whining into a talk. If I want to keep talking, and I certainly do, it's important to listen to the whingeing first.</p>
<p>I'm glad we're allowed to whinge all we want in this country. I'm glad women whinged about not being allowed to vote; I'm glad women whinged and keep whingeing about not wanting to have to stick coat hangers up their nethers to stop unwanted pregnancies; I'm glad my African American ancestors whinged about slavery and I'm glad my anti-slavery ancestors whinged enough about it to get it changed. I'm glad my ancestors whinged enough about discrimination to get affirmative action going, and I'm glad the mothers in Love Canal whinged about their kids getting sick and dying so that we have some cleanup and better laws to protect us against murder by pollution. </p>
<p>I wish Gore would have whinged more about the first Bush election! </p>
<p>I'm a fan of whingeing I guess - I like to see problems discussed and worked through. Sometimes the reality of a problem is not quite what it seems to be when we start whining - so we listen to each other and work on the problem.</p>
<p>But if I ask my son if he perceives a problem and he answers that he does, then we will talk about that perception and work the perceived problem until we come to a way to view the situation and, if necessary, take action. </p>
<p>I will certainly not shut him down.</p>
<p>And let me add, that when I teach my middle school kids (8th grade) and the boys are loud and obnoxious, we talk about how these young men's new voices - yep, they're stuck with this amazing thing as their voices start to crack and deepen where you can hear any little whisper they say - I try to coach them about how loud they sound, and how they don't intend it but it sounds so loud, and how the girls can whisper to each other quietly, but how the boys have to learn how to use this new instrument they are stuck with. We try to work the problem. They're not being loud and obnoxious, well they are LOL but there's a reason and we try to recognize what's going on and discuss it and work a solution. We don't just call 'em obnox and shut 'em down. Shutting 'em down and calling them obnoxious with no further work makes 'em want to punch walls.</p>
<p>Whingeing is not the same as legitimate protest. Slaves were not whingeing. They were protesting a real oppression. To equate the supposed discrimination against boys today with the oppression of slaves is outrageous.</p>
<p>Whingeing is what cry-babies do. When privileged kids whine about what a hard time they're having, I tell them to think about people who earn $1 a day for 12 hours' work; about kids in Africa orphaned by war or AIDS. These are the kids (and adults) who have a legitimate reason to feel sorry for themselves.</p>
<p>There's little that an application of seats of the pants to the seats of chairs would not help when it comes to boys' achievement.</p>
<p>I'm done. Let the whingeing go on and the helicopter parents hover.</p>
<p>I guess I would include the crying of females too to that little rant. They can compare themselves to the above mentioned underprivledged and find they have nothing to complain about. I don't think anyone was comparing males to those groups.
The fact remains that if you are white and male, no matter how underprivledged or discriminated against you can never complain or even make note of obvious favoritism (and maybe that's a better word)
against you.
White males deserve to be individuals just as everyone else does.</p>
<p>My daughter just got a brochure from Iowa State University - 54% male.</p>
<p>I still don't think that will be enough for her to look at the school but it caught my eye.</p>
<p>I agree wholeheartedly with what's been said. Firsttimemom was not equating today's males to slaves, and keymom made a good point in stating that the even plight of women before the women's movement does not compare to that of the slaves. I think that to assume males are not allowed to bring up the fact that they feel a double standard eixists is absurd. No offense marite, but you are not a man, so how would you know? Obviously, I would never tell a women, a minority, or even a billionaire that they are not allowed to "whinge" about their lives because I have never lived their lives, and I therefore do not have the right to judge them. Do males have it as bad as minorities, or even women, when it comes to facing discimination? No, but do you honestly think that they therefore have no right to bring it up when they feel that they've experienced injustice? That's what it sounds like to me.</p>
<p>Jmarsh:</p>
<p>Is there discrimation against individual male students? Yes. Against individual female students? yes. Is it sometimes due to ideology (e.g. favoritism toward girls or presumption that girls are not good at math)? Yes. But I contend that it's only some boys who are discriminated against by some people. Yet, some of the posts seem to suggest that all boys are being discriminated against (or society as a whole promotes girls''s achievement) because the social pendulum has gone too far in the other direction. That is group think, and in my experience and that of my two boys, that is not borne out by evidence.<br>
Do I suggest that boys have nothing to struggle against? Of course not. Some come from poor socio-economic backgrounds; some come from broken homes, some have learning issues. Except for the learning issues, which may be gender-related, and the differnt developmental process, which I mentioned in an earlier post, these are not gender specific problems. I'd be astonished if a teacher told a boy with divorcing parents to keep a stiff upper lip while telling his sister "How awful for you, what can I do to help you?"
Some of the claims of discrimination against boys seem to give permission to these boys to give up. Why make an effort if society is going to favor girls? What happened to "I'll show them"?</p>
<p>ouch marite. Did you have to throw 'black' into your description of bad loud boys who can be forgiven? </p>
<p>Some children are loud, some are quiet. Some are boys, some are girls. End of story. No 'bad' or 'good' label required...unless you are a helicopter parent worrying about such things.</p>
<p>Cheers:</p>
<p>You're right :)
I keep having in mind three boys, aged 17 to 19, who were arrested last year in a hotel in Kenmore Square for drug dealing and illegal possession of weapons. I knew two of them, as they'd attended my S's school. They'd been not only loud, but bullies as well.</p>
<p>Bullies are everywhere. I've got two prospective buyers trying to bully me at the moment, demanding (?) I spend $1000 to fly down to see them on site when they are not prepared to make an offer.</p>
<p>I am older now. I apologize as I tell bullies to go fly a kite; ie "I am so sorry you feel that way! Now... go fly a kite."</p>
<p>btw I was so disruptive in fifth grade, the teacher tired of sending me to the hall and sent me and the desk out of her room. Fine by me. I read all day out in the hall.</p>
<p>Cheers:</p>
<p>One of S's friends got out of a particular class by saying, not quite sotto voce, some obscenity he knew the very strait-laced (male) teacher would object to. Invariably, the teacher would say: "Care to repeat that?" Upon which the kid would repeat the obscenity very loudly. The teacher would get red in the face and order him out of the room--which is exactly what the kid wanted him to do.<br>
Not surprisingly, the kid learned nothing in that class. It's only last year, as a junior, that he began to put his formidable intellect to some good use. I don't know what his transcript and GPA are going to look like. Yet, he is one of the smartest kids I know. </p>
<p>As I've posted before, S was disruptive out of boredom. He did try to defend himself against one of the bullies who was arrested. Alas, he used a pencil; that was deemed "a dangerous weapon," and he got suspended. :( luckily, it was early enough in his middle school career that he did not have to come clean about it in his college app! :)
"The pen (cil) is mightier than the sword."</p>
<p>Lol, as a guy I gotta admit this is great news</p>
<p>then again I am looking into engineering :(</p>
<p>I agree completely with Marite. I haven't seen one itty-bitty hint of discrimination against my S for being male. The top ten of his school were five male, five female--one thru four were guys. Which basically means that anecdotal evidence like that means pretty much nothing.</p>
<p>To me this backlash sounds like the same "whinge-ing" about how tough it is to be white with all this durn affirmative action. We have privileges we never acknowledge because they're the air we breathe.</p>