Which British unis are comparable to the Ivy League?

College Search & Selection
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<p>xiggi, I admit I am no expert in SATs, but I have taken them sometime in 1999/2000 and scored good enough to get me into some really good schools in the US. At that time, there were only 2 parts and a score of 650/800 was already somewhat a good score. However, time has changed and competition to top schools has gone stiffer. I believe a 650/800 taken during my time has not much of a value compared to these days, when about several thousand students today would score that easily. Both Berkeley and Michigan alone would have over 15 thousand students who have a score of 650/800 SAT Maths. </p>

<p>I can’t also say enough how the Americans living in America and who grew up in America view St Andrews. That is your turf. But when you made a claim that St Andrews is easy to get into, I think you need to substantiate that, because St Andrews isn’t that easy to get into these days as far as I know. All courses at St Andrews require minimum A-Level grades of AAB-AAA. If you have any knowledge about A-Levels, getting an A really isn’t that easy. It would require a lot of hard work, unless you really are quite academically gifted.
<a href=“http://www.st-andrews.ac.uk/media/Degrees%20and%20their%20Entry%20Requirements%20-%202013%20Entry.pdf[/url]”>http://www.st-andrews.ac.uk/media/Degrees%20and%20their%20Entry%20Requirements%20-%202013%20Entry.pdf&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>*
In the last undergraduate UCAS cycle we received over 12,000 applications for approximately 1,100 ‘Home’ i.e. United Kingdom / European Union domiciled places. With in excess of 10 applications per place, competition per place is intense and all candidates will be expected to achieve highly in the qualifications they are studying for.*
[Entry</a> requirements | University of St Andrews](<a href=“http://www.st-andrews.ac.uk/admissions/ug/entryrequirements/]Entry”>http://www.st-andrews.ac.uk/admissions/ug/entryrequirements/)</p>

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<p>But above anything, this thread is about UK universities that can be compared (or comparable) to the Ivies. And, since the Ivies aren’t uniformly prestigious, the answer could vary too. That’s why OxBridge was mentioned, along with unis like Durham, Bristol, Warwick, UCL, Edinburgh and St Andrews. I cannot just mention Oxbridge and stop right there. OxBridge and Brown have a gap, almost similar to the gap that HYP and Brown has. If it is a universal knowledge that HYP and DBC are equal, then my list would stop after OxBridge.</p>

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<p>RML, As someone who was not born in the USA, I am tempted to think of the ivy league schools as the equivalent of various colleges within Oxford. Then, Stanford, MIT and Caltech as the equivalent of Cambridge in the UK. Then, Duke, WUSTL, Chicago, Northwestern etc as the equivalent of Imperial or LSE. I say this because I can see the calibre of international students from Pakistan and India who get admitted to these schools.</p>

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<p>Here is the 2012 list of accepted students from Pakistan into colleges in UK:</p>

<p>University of Cambridge (2 Aitchison, 2 KGS, 2 Roots, 1 LGS (800th Scholarship))
Oxford University (1 LAS, 1 Aitchison, 1 Roots)
Imperial College London (1 Choueifat, 7 KGS, 8 Roots, 1 Lacas, 3 SICAS)
London School of Economics (5 KGS, 3 SICAS)
University of Bristol (1 LAS, 4 Roots)
University of Durham (2 LAS, 6 Roots)
University College London (7 Roots, 1 SICAS)
University of Warwick (2 LAS, 17 Roots, 3 SICAS, 3 Choueifat (2 Undergrad, 1 Foundation))</p>

<p>Most kids on the above list, who will end up attending these schools, in my experience, will do so because they were rejected from the Ivies, Stanford, MIT and Caltech, but had the money to pay to attend college in the UK. For example, I personally know one of the above students who was accepted to Imperial, but will be attending WUSTL. This is someone who has the financial resources to pay the way at Imperial, but prefers to study engineering at WUSTL. Look at Warwick, it accepted 17 students from one high school (Roots). Can you show me one ivy league that accepted so many Pakistanis from this school?</p>

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<p>Here is the list of Pakistanis accepted to US Universities:</p>

<p>•Harvard University (1 Beaconhouse Margalla, 1 Roots Islamabad)
•Princeton University (1 Aitchison, 1 LGS JT ($50,000 aid per year), 1 Roots DHA1 ($60,000 aid per year), 1 Beaconhouse Margalla)
•Yale University (2 KGS, 1 Roots Islamabad, 1 Beaconhouse)
•Columbia University (1 LGS Defence(ED), 1 LACAS (likely), 2 KGS)
•MIT (1 Aitchison, 1 LGS Defence, 2 Beaconhouse Margalla)
•Stanford University (2 KGS)
•University of Chicago (1 LAS, 1 KGS)
•University of Pennsylvania (1 KGS (Wharton), 1 Roots Islamabad, 1 LGS Defence, 1 Nixor)
•Duke University (2 Roots DHA1 (1 with $51,200 aid per year, 1 with $60,570 aid per year) 1 Beaconhouse Margalla, 1KGS)
•Dartmouth College (1 Roots DHA1 ($55,800 aid per year), 2 LGS JT ($46,000 aid per year), 1 Roots Islamabad)
•Northwestern University (1 Aitchison, 2 KGS (1 Honors Medical program), 1 Southshore)
•Johns Hopkins University (1 Aitchison, 1 Beaconhouse)
•Washington University in St. Louis (1 Roots DHA1 ($57,200 aid per year), 1 KGS (100% aid per year))
•Brown University (2 Aitchison, 1 LGS 1-A/1, 1 Beaconhouse Margalla)
•Cornell University (5 Roots DHA1, 1 KGS, 1 Beaconhouse, 1 Beaconhouse GAL, 1 Beaconhouse Margalla)</p>

<p>Notice how at most five students from Roots managed to even get accepted to one of the Ivies (Cornell). Standford, MIT, Duke, Chicago, Northwestern did not accept a single one. WUSTL accepted one.</p>

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<p>Actually, that’s not true for most UK schools. For all schools, they will also look at your recommendations and your personal statement at least. For Edinburgh, yes, that’s all for a US applicant, and I think Bristol and one or two others.</p>

<p>For most others, you will have other requirements. Some will require transcripts, some will require separate entrance exams or samples of your work, and some will require substantive interviews. The minimum requirements vary by school, and you need to check the requirements on each university’s website carefully.</p>

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<p>Well, that is why comparisons is really an exercise in futility. This is especially true when we try to add an international dimension. Look at the Asian prestigious schools that attract such a fierce competition. People think their life is over for failing to make their parents happy with an admission to the top school. On the other hand, the same school would leave a candidate to a US school rather unimpressed.</p>

<p>In this case, there are two ways to look at it. Assuming that the Ivy League represents a short list of the the most prestigious schools in this country (not true to everybody’s tastes) a list of the most prestigious schools in the UK offers a generic comparison. However, that does not mean that the fifth or seventh school is comparable to Dartmouth or Brown. </p>

<p>My posts have reflected a US based position of … relative selectivity. While you quoted 1 out 12 applicants (or 1100/12000) this does NOT mean that the admission rate is in the single digits. Think how US schools with 1600 seats attract 32-35,000 applications. The difference comes from admission rates and yield. Contrary to posts by successful applicants at St Andrews, the Scottish school is not as selective as Stanford or Brown or Dartmouth. Stretching it, it is more Vanderbilt or Emory! </p>

<p>Then, coming back to a US perspective, the statistics of St Andrews reflect a pool of local aplicants that is more selective (not hard to see why in Scotland) and a MUCH easier system for US applicants. For instance, US successful applicants have been known to receive an offer of admission within ONE week. This ROLLING ADMISSION speaks volume about the lack of holistic and comparative reviews. Again, it IS a pulse, a wallet, and better than average grades. </p>

<p>It also highlights that the a better than average score coupled with not needing financial aid are the drivers of St Andrews’ decision. Again a 1900 SAT score IS a good to very good score. Such a score will get you in plenty of schools in the US, and automatically at some. A 3.4 to 3.6 GPA will get you in plenty of schools. But prepare one of those MOWC and ask if that would get you into the Ivy League, and prepare some popcorn for the spectacle that will play out!</p>

<p>Simply stated, where you to take a sample of students at highly competitive HS in the countries, you will see how little an overlap there is between an Ivy League bound student and a student who will choose between BC, UCSD, Creighton, SLC or … St Andrews. </p>

<p>For some full-pay US students, a school that is a very LIKELY school academically and offers a whiff of prestige might very well be superiorly attractive. After all, where can you go from the shores of Lake Wobegon to the place where Kate M stole Prince William’s heart? This ought to impress the same neighbors who are glued to their TV-set every time the Brits exhibit their royal pageantry. </p>

<p>All in all, it works for St Andrews as the 25 to 30 percent from the US balances their low costs for locals. It works for many families in the US as they can avoid the USNews rat race and have a nice narrative to “explain” the choices. It does seem to work for most students who were brave (and rich) enough to survive the geographical and social isolation of St Andrews. It is a great place for the Europeans. If it is for an American student remains in the eye of the beholder.</p>

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<p>I wouldn’t say those American schools are on the same caliber as Imperial or LSE (at least according to international rankings and reputation). I believe Imperial is around the top 10?</p>

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<p>Amen. Elegantly put. I wish I’d said it myself.</p>

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<p>stressedouttt, Imperial accepted 7 from KGS and 8 from Roots. In contrast WUSTL accepted 1 from KGS and 1 from Roots. I will let you decide which school the students at KGS and Roots think is more selective. By the way, I know the kid from KGS who was accepted by WUSTL. This kid is also one of seven accepted to Imperial, but will be attending WUSTL in the Fall.</p>

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<p>I’d add, it’s easier for an American to get in to st andrews than it is for an American to successfully graduate from there.</p>

<p>Sent from my DROID2 GLOBAL using CC</p>

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<p>I thought a full 25 percent of British students earn a A grade. On some threads on CC, observers wrote that those A are doled out like candy at Halloween. I am also aware of persistent criticisms of grade inflation. Not being “that easy” is probably not a real reference of this meaning much in terms of admissions … in the context of the Ivy League and its international counterparts. After all, what is the SAT 75th quartile?</p>

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<p>First things RML</p>

<p>Dont mix up US with UK. Moreover dont mix up poor statistical ability with reality. Brown accepts people with 650 in the SAT Math but these people could have a 750 in the SAT verbal portion. They might not end up being engineers/mathematicians but they would be brilliant philsophers and historians. Ivy schools try and take students with multivaried abilities and different skills. If they took only high SAT math scorers they are likely to have a disproportionate number of engineers. Remember that colleges admit a whole class and not to a particular major like UK universities.</p>

<p>Moreover Ivy League schools use class rank and performance as a student in high school. This could mean that someone who scored averagely in the SAT could have a really strong academic record that would be sufficient to get it no even Cambridge/Oxford or Imperial/LSE in the UK for all we know.</p>

<p>Say for example someone studied History at Cambridge. They would probably not be really good at Math (Lets be honest most people inclined towards Math do not study the humanities) and will be likely to score pretty low in the SAT math even if its basic. Now take all the non-humanities people. You get the idea.</p>

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<p>If we are talking educational quality, access to resources, faculty, etc. Then discussions on who has what test scores are rather useless as the average test scores of a school share no causal relationships (which can be inindentified) with the quality of a school V - rather, quite obviously, these are merely correlational relationships.</p>

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<p>^ Lower Ivy League schools blow Warwick et al. out of the water in terms of resources. Top US schools have money in abundance and do not shy on spending it on their students. Even tiny top liberal art schools provide ridiculous educational opportunities.</p>

<p>Job prospects- Take a look at say linkedin and county the number of Brown/Cornell/Dartmouth students at say so called elite occupations such as Consulting and IB and then compare them to schools like Durham/Warwick et al. and calculate the gap its gonna be huge. Ok Go a step higher to Imperial and its still going to be huge. I have done the calculations already. I still can see no advantage to going to these schools over the ivies except if you want to go online and just confuse everyone with international rankings.</p>

<p>Moreover most people are not consistent. Cornell/Columbia/Penn are well ahead of most UK schools in world rankings except ones produced by British people. LSE is poorly ranked.</p>

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<p>Also I agree with previous posters- most people in Ivy League schools rarely tier universities as much as other people here do especially academics. A lot of professors I have met at HYP consider Columbia and UChicago their solid peers.</p>

<p>Also Ivy League plus roughly the 7 (Stanford, Caltech, MIT, Northwestern, Chicago, Duke, Hopkins other schools are solidly above Durham/Warwick in student quality/resources/job prospects in their home turf.</p>

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<p>I would say the top 15 American universities that sefago mentioned are comparable to Oxbridge. The other UK universities compare well with the next 20 private schools in American and the top 10 public schools.</p>