<p>^^^Especially this year! Actually, I believe NC had more snow than SE Michigan this winter as well. It’s been a very strange season.</p>
<p>hippo2718,</p>
<p>I apologize if you and some people here think that I was trying to ambush this thread and tried to side-track the topic away from its core. Believe me; that wasn’t my intention. In fact, I have tried to keep my answer in line with what the OP was asking - academic prestige - for I could not contribute to any discussion which requires teaching/classroom standards for my exposure to American education at the undergrad level is limited. However, prestige is a topic that is not exclusive to American-raised people as what hawkette has suggested. Yes; I went to Cambridge, but I have no real knowledge of my alma mater’s reputation - as a whole - and how it is perceived in other countries by some groups of people despite having spent 3 years there, for reputation is a relative thing. </p>
<p>For your guide, here’s again the OP’s question/s:
Take note that the OP did not ask about the prestige of these schools in a specific location, so it was my understanding that the OP was just asking for the general prestige of these schools - across America, and perhaps, also across the globe. Please take not also that the OP specifically asked about business schools, law schools and other professional schools, as s/he perhaps is also aware that school prestige is largely generated by the strength of its great and well-established professional schools. </p>
<p>hawkette,
No; that’s not entirely correct. My discussion was largely about prestige simply because 1. it was what the OP was asking about, and 2. it’s something that I can easily participate in a discussion since I am aware of Michigan’s general prestige. But had the OP asked for classroom experience or teaching/classroom standard, you would most probably have not found a single post of mine on this thread. </p>
<p>
There are a lot of legit surveys, league tables, ranking games, write ups (and whatnot) which would strongly corroborate with my experience, and I feel that these need to be heard of (when asked) despite the different opinions and beliefs you and those few hoodlums of this message board.</p>
<p>
When I mentioned Ross and Kenan-Flagler, did you not realise that I was largely referring to the prestige of these schools in the banking and finance industry, or in places like Wall Street or commercial capitals like NY, LA, SF, Chicago, Boston or Houston?</p>
<p>A hoodlum?? I’ve been called lots of things, but never a hoodlum. How exotic! I’m just a little confused on how to dress now, what with my closets full of pinks and greens. I never went in for that NY black chic look. LOL. But now that I’m a hoodlum, maybe I’ll have to reconsider. And I’m gonna need some new accessories. Can someone loan me a tire iron?</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Aw, so we internationals shouldn’t be allowed on CC and participate in discussions? Come on guys, lets leave. </p>
<p>First of all, when we internationals chime in about the prestige in our corner of the globe, we’re making valid points. The OP wanted to know about * prestige * and I can tell you for a fact that Michigan is more prestigious in my part of the world (Southeast Asia). I’m talking about global prestige here. Just because its “a back-up school to top privates” doesn’t make it any less prestigious than it actually is.</p>
<p>The one thing that you’re probably still not aware of is that writings can convey strong messages and perceptions. You are a good writer, hawkette, and it’s obvious that you can manipulate the thoughts of your readers based solely on your superb writing skills. You don’t need to dress up like those guys in Bronx (or perhaps in your neighborhood) to be a hoodlum on CC. Your flamboyant words alone would singlehandedly do the bullying for you.</p>
<p>hippo2718,
</p>
<p>If you are looking at these schools as academic institutions providing UNDERGRADUATE education per se, it may well appear that way. (Perhaps that explains hawkette’s and DuninLA’s violent reactions to my posts.) However, if you will take everything into account such as the brand power of their professional schools and the post-graduate schools, like what the OP was interested about, then Michigan’s lead over UNC would increase significantly.</p>
<p>
Oh, no harm done. I was more than a little rude in my earlier post, in any case, so I too apologize.</p>
<p>As for the Berkeley:Michigan::Michigan:UNC argument, I was referring to the graduate school of arts and sciences. You are correct that the main professional schools (business, medicine, law) are noticeably stronger at Michigan, although it is worth noting that the other professional schools that UNC has (public health, dentistry, journalism, library science, etc.) are ranked #1/#2 in their fields.</p>
<p>To an extent, I blame the OP. He did not phrase his question in a way that would be at all conducive to a thoughtful decision. Here would be my rewording of the original post based on past posts:</p>
<p>I’m a student in North Carolina who was admitted to UNC and Michigan. I’m in-state for UNC, but I really like Michigan. Michigan would only give me about $3000 a year; I would have to pay for the rest out of pocket. Is Michigan worth the extra cost over UNC?</p>
<p>I like how Alexandre introduced Berkeley into this thread, here:
</p>
<p>I smell a ■■■■■ thread since this was started by someone with duke devil in their user name.</p>
<p>
Heh…Well, an opinion survey of over 2,000 academics seem to agree:
Harvard = 4.9
Princeton = 4.9
MIT = 4.9
Stanford = 4.9
Yale = 4.8
Berkeley = 4.7 (all alone, after HYPSM)
…</p>
<p>gy student,
Haha. Heck, I love internationals coming on CC. I appreciate the input and the different perspectives that are provided. But I draw the line on the insistences that I frequently read from RML and others about the place of ABC College in the universe of America’s top undergraduate destinations. Add the qualifier…“from the perspective of a student coming from XYZ Country, ABC University is terrific/okay/stinks” is a far more digestable statement than what we frequently get which is usually along the lines of “ABC is the greatest, most prestigious university known to man and which brought us everything from fire to the wheel to the Lazy Boy Recliner.” </p>
<p>My strong sense is that, among internationals, their impressions of American colleges are far more shaped by the prestige of a college’s graduate programs. What’s missing is an understanding of the great breadth and quality of undergraduate destinations that exists among American colleges. Also missing is how vitally different the grad school experience is from one’s undergraduate experience and how, in America, graduate school excellence and prestige doesn’t necessarily mean undergraduate excellence and prestige. </p>
<p>There are dozens of American colleges that do undergraduate extremely well and graduate school not so well (think Wake Forest/Tufts) or not so broadly (think Dartmouth/Brown) or sometimes not at all (think Pomona/many LACs). Do these schools have high prestige among internationals? I doubt it. Is that an informed view about the quality of the undergraduate product that these schools deliver to their students, particularly vis-</p>
<p>RML, you cannot, as some philosophers are known to do, create your own personal meaning for words, and then argue from your new start point. </p>
<p>You stated that UNC was 2nd TIER this, 3rd TIER that, as though you were referring to published TIERS. When posters pointed out that UNC was Tier 1 in most of those areas per two of the ratings publications, you simply ignored those facts as though they were not relevant to YOUR meaning of the word TIER.</p>
<p>Now, back on topic:</p>
<p>the question on the table is: </p>
<p>"I’m a student in North Carolina who was admitted to UNC and Michigan. I’m in-state for UNC, but I really like Michigan. Michigan would only give me about $3000 a year; I would have to pay for the rest out of pocket. Is Michigan worth the extra cost over UNC? "</p>
<p>My answer is, NO. I would give the same answer if the price differential were the same between say, UC San Diego (rank #35), and UC Berkeley (rank #21).</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Wait, isn’t Princeton a very prestigious school? If so, then how is its prestige generated, since it does not even have a law, medical, or business school? It must have gotten grandfathered in or something.</p>
<p>This is one of those choices in which the differences in campuses and campus vibes dwarf the differences in prestige. Hard to believe someone could visit both places and still be undecided where to to. If one costs twice what the other one costs, there should be no question at all. What happened to Northwestern v. Georgetown?</p>
<p>I’m a student in North Carolina who was admitted to UNC and Michigan. I’m in-state for UNC, but I really like Michigan. Michigan would only give me about $3000 a year; I would have to pay for the rest out of pocket. Is Michigan worth the extra cost over UNC?</p>
<p>BTW…the OP is not a ■■■■■. His name has Duke Devil in it because he originally applied to Duke. I think he applied ED and was rejected, but I may be wrong about that. (If I am, I apologize.)</p>
<p>Anyway, I believe that once the above happened (if it did indeed happen), he regrouped and began focusing on UMich. However, he expressed the need for a good scholarship fromm UMich because his EFC is very high and his parents can only pay about half of it. I think I remember that his EFC is in the mid $40s and his parents can pay somewhere in the mid $20s.</p>
<p>So, now we know that the OP is in-state for UNC and he only is being given a small token scholarship from UMich - which won’t overcome the OOS cost difference. UMich is about $50k per year for OOS students (and higher for upper division students).</p>
<p>On the other hand, the COA for in-state UNC-CH is $18k per year. HUGE difference. </p>
<p>UMich is not worth $120,000 more than UNC-CH…especially if loans are needed.</p>
<p>Both are great schools and as Alexandre noted they are often seen as peers and share this with a few other universities such as University of Illinois- Urbana Champaign
Quoting Alexandre:
</h1>
<p>If one is much more expensive than the other its likely a better ideal to go for which is more affordable as either would be a great choice. University of Michigan is known for having one of the largest alumni groups of universities and this is a area where UNC may fall short. I do see how each school is similar in terms of academics and student life. Overall paying the extra cost for Michigan would not be a typical student decision, especially if one looks to attend graduate school as college is very costful.</p>
<p>Also, if it’s prestige your looking at and you plan to attend graduate school ( assuming it’s prestigous) I wouldn’t worry about that so much. Though if its the " Michigan experience" or say “UNC experience” than these are things to factor, though I doubt one would differ largely in a way you would regret your choice, or say one would differ largley that you should pay 100k more for your “undergraduate” education.</p>
<p>
[quote]
My strong sense is that, among internationals, their impressions of American colleges are far more shaped by the prestige of a college’s graduate programs. What’s missing is an understanding of the great breadth and quality of undergraduate destinations that exists among American colleges. Also missing is how vitally different the grad school experience is from one’s undergraduate experience and how, in America, graduate school excellence and prestige doesn’t necessarily mean undergraduate excellence and prestige.</p>
<p>There are dozens of American colleges that do undergraduate extremely well and graduate school not so well (think Wake Forest/Tufts) or not so broadly (think Dartmouth/Brown) or sometimes not at all (think Pomona/many LACs). Do these schools have high prestige among internationals? I doubt it. Is that an informed view about the quality of the undergraduate product that these schools deliver to their students, particularly vis-</p>
<p>“As for the Berkeley:Michigan::Michigan:UNC argument, I was referring to the graduate school of arts and sciences. You are correct that the main professional schools (business, medicine, law) are noticeably stronger at Michigan, although it is worth noting that the other professional schools that UNC has (public health, dentistry, journalism, library science, etc.) are ranked #1/#2 in their fields.”</p>
<p>Michigan is also ranked very highly in those disciplines, with the exception of journalism which is not offered. My earlier point is that Michigan is NOT relatively weak in any of it’s offerings. UNC cannot say the same.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>The only thing that UNC is weak in is engineering, but we made NC State for that. :)</p>
<p>“As you’ve probably noticed, the ONLY thing that matters to RML is perceptions of prestige. And he is absolutely convinced that UC Berkeley (and U Michigan to a slightly lesser extent) is next in line after HYPSM.”</p>
<p>Thinking that Cal and Michigan belong between #6 and #20 is in line with what the bulk of academe think Hawkette, and this entire thread is about “prestige” isn’t it.</p>
<p>[Criticism</a> of College Rankings - September 23, 1996](<a href=“http://www.stanford.edu/dept/pres-provost/president/speeches/961206gcfallow.html]Criticism”>Criticism of College Rankings - September 23, 1996)</p>
<p>Gerhard Casper’s main loyalties are to Yale, Chicago and Stanford and yet his reverence for Cal and Michigan is clear. His respect for those two universities is shared by the majority of the academic world.</p>