Which college is more prestigious?

[swish14]

<p>Michigan would be more prestigious than North Carolina except Michigan couldnt teach Chris Webber to count how many timeouts a team gets, ergo UNC>Michigan.</p>

[dimsum123]

<p>

@RML

To all those who’re saying that school prestige is largely meant for undergrad education, let me ask you these:</p>

<p>Is Brown really more prestigious than Columbia?</p>

<p>Is Williams more prestigious than UPenn?</p>

<p>Is Harvey Mudd more prestigious than Caltech?</p>

<p>Is Pomona more prestigious than Stanford?</p>

<p>Is McKenna more prestigious than Berkeley?

</p>

<p>LACs (or in the case of Brown, LAC hybrids) do not necessarily offer better undergraduate education. Their student quality may not necessarily be better either.</p>

<p>So your (rhetorical) questions don’t help your argument. The reason why Berkeley as an undergraduate institution is less prestigious than Brown or Williams or Pomona is because the former is less selective than the latter. It is much easier to get into Berkeley than Brown or Williams or Pomona. However, Berkeley is not more prestigious than Harvey Mudd because the engineers at both schools are equally capable (although the overall student body is weaker at Berkeley than at Harvey Mudd). Nor is Berkeley less prestigious than McKenna because the caliber of both their student bodies are more comparable.</p>

[Hunt]

<p>Folks, “prestige” is defined by one thing and one thing only: what people think is prestigious. Those opinions may be based on conceptions of educational quality, selectivity, or other factors, and they may or may not be accurate, but none of that really matters. If people think Columbia is more prestigious than Brown, then it is.</p>

<p>It matters which “people” you are talking about. Is Berkeley more prestigious than Duke? This would not even be a question in the South.
Also, we all have personal biases that color this–I live on the East Coast, so that colors my impressions of West Coast schools. But I come from the South, went to school in the Northeast, lived in NYC, and now live near DC, so my outlook isn’t totally regional. But, as an example, you’d be hard-pressed to find people around here who could tell you how prestigious Claremont McKenna is, because they won’t have heard of it at all.</p>

[RML]

<p>^ can you sat that again the Hunt did?</p>

[dimsum123]

<p>

@Alexandre

“This is where you analogy breaks down. Brown and Dartmouth are more prestigious than Berkeley exactly because of “exclusivity.” It is much harder to get into Brown or Dartmouth than Berkeley.”</p>

<p>My analogy is spot on and Cal is actually more exclusive than Brown and Dartmouth for OOS applicants.

</p>

<p>OOS students represent only about 10% of Cal’s student body. What about the other 90%?</p>

<p>

@Alexandre

"If it were merely a matter of “quality” of academic programs (not student body), then it is clear that Berkeley beats both Brown and Dartmouth. But we don’t determine the prestige of undergraduate institutions only by academics and departmental rankings. "</p>

<p>Who’s “we”? I personally determine prestige of undergraduate institutions almost entirely by academic and departmental rankings

</p>

<p>This is almost entirely because you graduated from an undergraduate institution with rich academics and departmental offerings, but relatively poor selectivity. Simply compare the caliber of student bodies (or any other selectivity indices) at Michigan against that at Brown or Dartmouth.</p>

<p>

@Alexandre

The revealed preferences ranking is interesting to be certain, but it is a mere reflection of student behavior and preference and is not an accurate depiction of prestige among the educated and influential masses.

</p>

<p>Student behavior and preference affect student quality which is tied to school prestige. Students who have been admitted to Brown or Dartmouth (and choose it over the likes of Cal and Michigan) are hardly members of the “masses.” So why is their “depiction of prestige” any less valid than yours?</p>

[Hunt]

<p>Try this question: which is more prestigious, Berkeley or the US Military Academy? To most people, the answer to this will be obvious. But will the answer be the same?</p>

[Pizzagirl]

<p>

Certainly, if you were to ask Americans to name the most prestigious public universities, they’d probably think of Berkeley, U of Va., and Michigan first. Maybe Wisconsin. UNC would be close, as would several others.

</p>

<p>Furthermore, if you asked the average American where prestige fits in terms of considering where they want to send their own children to school, it’s going to rank pretty low compared to cost, distance from home, and perceived ability to land a job afterwards. People on here are confusing “X is prestigious” with “Therefore, X is something I actively aspire to or admire.” Most Americans would say that Rolex is a prestigious watch or Mercedes a prestigious car; that doesn’t mean that therefore their life goals are to own a Rolex or drive a Mercedes.</p>

<p>Anyway, prestige only matters to people who feel a need to chase prestige. For people who are comfortable in their own skin and with their own decisions, impressing other people just isn’t high on their list. </p>

<p>And, there’s a sort of quiet prestige in choosing things that <em>aren’t</em> necessarily known-by-the-masses. It’s the “I know better” school of thought. Anybody can choose to apply to Harvard – it’s those in the know who know about Swarthmore or Claremont McKenna or whatever and how fine they are. Speaking of CMC, my nephew just got accepted there (still waiting on other acceptances, don’t know if he’ll go). But if he does, the fact that most people haven’t heard of it doesn’t make it the least bit less prestigious. It’s prestigious among the people who matter. RML mistakes that to be “everybody and his brother.”</p>

[Pizzagirl]

<p>The average American may also simultaneously say (for example) “Harvard is prestigious” but also prefer his state-flagship-grad for the job that he’s hiring for, because he also associates Harvard with uppity, snooty, entitled, won’t get his hands dirty. (Not to say that that is a truth, but it can be a perception.) Again, “X is prestigious” does not equal “And therefore, all else being equal, I will always hire someone from X over Y.”)</p>

[Pizzagirl]

<p>

This is where you analogy breaks down. Brown and Dartmouth are more prestigious than Berkeley exactly because of “exclusivity.” It is much harder to get into Brown or Dartmouth than Berkeley.

</p>

<p>So, is Deep Springs the most prestigious college in the US?
Is Juilliard more prestigious than Harvard?</p>

[Schmaltz]

<p>“And, there’s a sort of quiet prestige in choosing things that <em>aren’t</em> necessarily known-by-the-masses.” </p>

<p>To take Pizzagirl’s point even farther, when I meet somebody who went to Williams (lots of Williams alums on Planet Snark), I think “Wow, here’s somebody who probably could have gone to Cornell or Duke or Brown, but was quietly confident enough to go to a place which has about zero “Wow” factor when his barber/hairdresser asks him where he/she went.” It’s sort of like showing up to a job interview wearing a Meyler instead of a Rolex.</p>

[Hunt]

<p>

Is Juilliard more prestigious than Harvard?

Ah, there’s a good question! Prestige is about reputation–that’s pretty much all it is about. If you’re talking about musicians, then yes, Juilliard is more prestigious than Harvard.</p>

<p>Here is a practical way to think about this kind of prestige. A truly prestigious school is one that will cause people to say, “Did you know that he went to __________?” And the other person will be impressed. In my opinion, there are only a handful of schools that meet this test on a national basis–HYPSM, Caltech, and the service academies. *Maybe *the very top LACs, in some circles. More, by region. But for other extremely excellent, highly selective schools, it simply makes little sense to talk about their prestige, at least on a national basis. How prestigious is Grinnell?</p>

<p>Crossposted with Schmaltz–I agree with you, except I don’t think the barber will be impressed by Brown, either.</p>

[Alexandre]

<p>Yes Pizzagirl, and Caltech is more prestigious than Harvard and WUSTL is more prestigious than stanford. All that matters is exclusivity!</p>

[dimsum123]

<p>

@Pizzagirl

This is where your analogy breaks down. Brown and Dartmouth are more prestigious than Berkeley exactly because of “exclusivity.” It is much harder to get into Brown or Dartmouth than Berkeley. </p>

<p>So, is Deep Springs the most prestigious college in the US?
Is Juilliard more prestigious than Harvard?

</p>

<p>Your rhetorical questions reveal a common misunderstanding as to what counts as a fair and valid comparison. Deep Springs and Julliard are entirely different types of institutions. And I wouldn’t say they are more exclusive than Harvard. As a matter of fact, most Deep Springs grads who apply to Harvard do not get in. Stop comparing apples to oranges. Or pizzas to pastas.</p>

<p>Now this is an example of a fair and valid comparison: Brown or Dartmouth is more prestigious than Northwestern.</p>

[dimsum123]

<p>

@Alexandre

Caltech is more prestigious than Harvard and WUSTL is more prestigious than stanford. All that matters is exclusivity!

</p>

<p>“Exclusivity” is more than SAT scores. If you look at acceptance and yield rates (or cross-admit battles), it is clear that Harvard is more prestigious than Caltech and Stanford is more prestigious than WUSTL. Your reductionist argument fails. </p>

<p>However, as undergraduate institutions, both Caltech and WUSTL are more prestigious than Michigan.</p>

[Hunt]

<p>It’s not about exclusivity–it’s about reputation and perception.</p>

<p>There’s a discussion elsewhere on CC about whether it would be better to go to Harvard or to accept the Moorehead-Cain scholarship at UNC. To people from NC, or elsewhere in the South, this is a difficult question, because that scholarship is extremely competitive and it’s very prestigious–in the region–to receive it. People from elsewhere can’t understand how this is even a question, except for the financial aspect. The same might be true, as another example, for somebody deciding whether to be an Echols Scholar at UVa or to go to HYP.</p>

[Schmaltz]

<p>“Now this is an example of a fair and valid comparison: Brown or Dartmouth is more prestigious than Northwestern.”</p>

<p>And now for something completely different: how about Northwestern vs. Georgetown?</p>

<p>WUSTL is a an interesting case in point. I’d bet that no matter how good its academics are, and how hard it is to get into, a lot of people who are familiar with it wouldn’t think it’s prestigious and wouldn’t want to go there simply because of its cumbersome and geographically confusing name.</p>

[Hunt]

<p>

And now for something completely different: how about Northwestern vs. Georgetown?

Northwestern. And I live in the DC area.</p>

[dimsum123]

<p>As undergraduate institutions, I’d say that Northwestern and Georgetown are (except for regional variation) equally prestigious. Less than Brown or Dartmouth. Significantly more than Michigan. Slightly more than Cal.</p>

<p>That said, Northwestern and Georgetown are very different. The former offers a more broad-based curriculum, while the latter excels in certain niche specialties (IR, poli-sci, linguistics, etc.)</p>

[Schmaltz]

<p>“Northwestern. And I live in the DC area.”</p>

<p>Well, that was easy. I would’ve thought it would take about 300 nasty posts to decide that question.</p>

[RML]

<p>

The average American may also simultaneously say (for example) “Harvard is prestigious” but also prefer his state-flagship-grad for the job that he’s hiring for, because he also associates Harvard with uppity, snooty, entitled, won’t get his hands dirty. (Not to say that that is a truth, but it can be a perception.) Again, “X is prestigious” does not equal “And therefore, all else being equal, I will always hire someone from X over Y.”)

Whilst I do not disagree with this, is Berkeley just like any of those state flagship you know? Seriously. come on.</p>